D&D 5E Mearl's Book Design Philosophy

[Shasarak]

Over here blocks of chocolate come in king size blocks which is a half pound of sugary goodness. I have sent NZ chocolate to friends in Texas and they seem to like it.

Is even the most cold hearted Texan going to turn down free chocolate?

Maybe the diabetic ones.

 

[Jester David]

There are no general content releases for 5e. So no, they have not engaged a middle ground.

*shrug* I disagree. I have gotten use out of SCAG and will likely get use out of VGtM. And I'm not playing in the Realms.

There's a lot more to the game than subclasses and spells.

You're assuming a whole lot about what they release and how. Optional rules, you know, the modularity they talked about, would be HUGE. It doesn't all have to be classes and spells.
Except, you know, the tons of other stuff that you are ignoring.

How many optional rules do you think the game needs? Is that really something they can just sit down and hammer out on a regular basis. I.e. annually?

I agree that we could definitely use a book full of extra optional rules (it was the book I'd like to see most, the D&D Hacker's Guide I suggested). But it's not the kind of thing you need again and again.

Seriously, what optional rules would you like to see? Give me a nice long list of this content that will fill 50 or 100 pages.

Or maybe, just maaaaaaybe, it's because it's true.

How would you rate the balance in the PHB? Both subclasses and feats. Fair? Perfect? Average?

Now cut the team writing the book in half (Rodney Thompson left WotC and Perkins is working on the adventures). Now write the book in half as much time without a massive public playtest.
Now do that every year for two or three years.

Do you *really* think that they'll be able to avoid power creep and breaking the game?
I have a lot of respect for the design chops of the team at WotC... but that's a heck of a lot of content to get out.

Even getting reasonable feedback on two or three subclasses every couple months (via Unearthed Arcana) is tricky.

At a rate of one book a year, it would take them like 40 years to hit the 3e/4e mark and go down the tubes. The sky is not falling.

First off, false equivalency.
A game system doesn't have to reach the same number of books at the end of 3e/4e/PF to fall apart. And arguably many "fell apart" well before the end. 3e was "long in the tooth" as early as 2006 when they were doing Dragon Magic. And the game continued to release books for eighteen months after that...
(Oh, and including Essentials there were something like eighteen or nineteen player focused books for 4e. A far cry from 40 years.)

How many books were released for 3e before the game started to fall apart? Possibly after they did the four Races of X books and four Complete X books. After that everything was unneeded. But, really, that's hard to say because those subjects could have been combined into one or two books with similar results.

Pathfinder compiled things into two books: magic and combat. I'd argue everything after Ultimate Equipment or maybe the Advanced Race Guide was "bloat country". Which was five or six books. Magic, combat, races, equipment, campaign rules, and the Advanced Player's Guide. But the APG was a whole lot of new classes that was pretty unnecessary and you could combine magic & combat into just "player options".
So you could hit "bloat" in as few as three to five large books.

Game systems can get unwieldy pretty fast. And once things are broken and bloated, you can't undo it.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't think the publishing schedule is too slow, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it vary up a bit. Each of their releases has been a little more different than the last. They've talked about some upcoming things...we know there's a "mechanical expansion" on the way. We're about to see the release of Volo's Guide to Monsters.

There already is support for players. And there will continue to be such support. However, based on what Mearls said, it seems like they are going to package the material differently from the past. Like VGtM...playable races along with lore material and a bunch of stat blocks for monsters and NPCs? And some lairs with maps?

I expect future releases to be a mix like that, especially if Volo's is a hit. Books with material that appeals to a variety of people and playstyles.

I'm sure such a book will have material I will find useful. Will I like all of it? No. But I don't think I can think of a single supplement over all editions whose content I used 100%. It's a black swan.

 

[Zardnaar]

*shrug* I disagree. I have gotten use out of SCAG and will likely get use out of VGtM. And I'm not playing in the Realms.


How many optional rules do you think the game needs? Is that really something they can just sit down and hammer out on a regular basis. I.e. annually?

I agree that we could definitely use a book full of extra optional rules (it was the book I'd like to see most, the D&D Hacker's Guide I suggested). But it's not the kind of thing you need again and again.

Seriously, what optional rules would you like to see? Give me a nice long list of this content that will fill 50 or 100 pages.


How would you rate the balance in the PHB? Both subclasses and feats. Fair? Perfect? Average?

Now cut the team writing the book in half (Rodney Thompson left WotC and Perkins is working on the adventures). Now write the book in half as much time without a massive public playtest.
Now do that every year for two or three years.

Do you *really* think that they'll be able to avoid power creep and breaking the game?
I have a lot of respect for the design chops of the team at WotC... but that's a heck of a lot of content to get out.

Even getting reasonable feedback on two or three subclasses every couple months (via Unearthed Arcana) is tricky.


First off, false equivalency.
A game system doesn't have to reach the same number of books at the end of 3e/4e/PF to fall apart. And arguably many "fell apart" well before the end. 3e was "long in the tooth" as early as 2006 when they were doing Dragon Magic. And the game continued to release books for eighteen months after that...
(Oh, and including Essentials there were something like eighteen or nineteen player focused books for 4e. A far cry from 40 years.)

How many books were released for 3e before the game started to fall apart? Possibly after they did the four Races of X books and four Complete X books. After that everything was unneeded. But, really, that's hard to say because those subjects could have been combined into one or two books with similar results.

Pathfinder compiled things into two books: magic and combat. I'd argue everything after Ultimate Equipment or maybe the Advanced Race Guide was "bloat country". Which was five or six books. Magic, combat, races, equipment, campaign rules, and the Advanced Player's Guide. But the APG was a whole lot of new classes that was pretty unnecessary and you could combine magic & combat into just "player options".
So you could hit "bloat" in as few as three to five large books.

Game systems can get unwieldy pretty fast. And once things are broken and bloated, you can't undo it.

I more or less limited Pathfinder to Ultimate Magic/Combat Advanced Players Guide and that is about it.

2E I mostly use the Complete Thief/Wizard/Fighter books and Tome of Magic.


Book of Magic, Book of Combat, Book of races, Book of Spells and after that I would favour things like UA or splat with a bit of everything.

3.5 maybe the 1st 4 complete books, the Psionics Book and the spell compendium.

5E has been slow at getting anything out.

We do not have the book of anything just the book of not much (SCAG).

I don't really count adventures, monster books or DM type books as bloat unless they are spamming a huge amount of them but generally after a 3 or 4 monster books they become silly such as MM IV and V in 3.5.

I would like 2-3 splat books from 5E and some shorter official adventures as buying an AP every 6 months is semi pointless as I have not even completed or started several of the earlier ones. I have not bought CoS or Storm Kings Thunder.

I have bought 3pp stuff though so I am not starving for what I want.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Nevermber 12th, 2024.
Nod. Just a different priority.

We were just talking about how no one actually goes and uses everything in a given splatbook. 5e, more than any recent edition, is big on opt-in modules. Think of the DM as your dietitian.

Or, y'know, they could just offer 'healthier options' and leave the cost-benefit of kale vs metabolic syndrome to the customer.

Doesn't work. We literally aren't wired in a way for that to work, nor does the economic model support it as a practical option for everyone. For many, more expensive healthy food is literally not an option at all.

But regarding the part that is relevant to the discussion, humans are just bad at that.

And beaides, its bad for the long term business model. The current model makes sense, and seems to be working.

Id like to be able to subscribe and thus avoid buying books, and also get access to more playtest/UA material, and digital tools, but I'm not crying for it. i honestly just don't like physical reference books, when searchable digital compendiums and pdfs are so easy to make. I'd much rather spend 100$ a year for a subscription and not need physical books. And they'd make just as much off me as they do off folks who like turning pages.

But such is life.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Is even the most cold hearted Texan going to turn down free chocolate?

Maybe the diabetic ones.

Dark chocolate is better anyway.

Literally the the first thing I said when I was diagnosed was, "Well, [expletive]. At least I already only eat dark chocolate."

Stupid sodas and energy drinks. If not for them my diet would have staved off the beetus for at least a few more years....

 

[Zardnaar]

Dark chocolate is better anyway.

Literally the the first thing I said when I was diagnosed was, "Well, [expletive]. At least I already only eat dark chocolate."

Stupid sodas and energy drinks. If not for them my diet would have staved off the beetus for at least a few more years....

Never been a soda fan and hate energy drinks. Milkshakes and chips though.

 

[Maxperson]

*shrug* I disagree. I have gotten use out of SCAG and will likely get use out of VGtM. And I'm not playing in the Realms.

Was there a part of "general releases" that you didn't understand? Regardless of whether or not you use those two books, they are not general releases.

How many optional rules do you think the game needs? Is that really something they can just sit down and hammer out on a regular basis. I.e. annually?

I agree that we could definitely use a book full of extra optional rules (it was the book I'd like to see most, the D&D Hacker's Guide I suggested). But it's not the kind of thing you need again and again.

Seriously, what optional rules would you like to see? Give me a nice long list of this content that will fill 50 or 100 pages.

There are optional rules, races, classes, subclasses, magic items, spells, feats, equipment, creatures, planes, and more. The books don't have to be hundreds of pages. One a year with all of that to pick from is enough to go 10-15 years without focusing too much in any given area.

How would you rate the balance in the PHB? Both subclasses and feats. Fair? Perfect? Average?

I give them fair/average(same difference to me), not perfect.

Now cut the team writing the book in half (Rodney Thompson left WotC and Perkins is working on the adventures). Now write the book in half as much time without a massive public playtest.
Now do that every year for two or three years.

They make a lot of money. Not having a few more people isn't an excuse, and they run private playtests with a number of groups. They can do the job if they have a mind to.

Do you *really* think that they'll be able to avoid power creep and breaking the game?
I have a lot of respect for the design chops of the team at WotC... but that's a heck of a lot of content to get out.

Yes. At least for a decade or more. Longer than prior editions have lasted.

First off, false equivalency.
A game system doesn't have to reach the same number of books at the end of 3e/4e/PF to fall apart. And arguably many "fell apart" well before the end. 3e was "long in the tooth" as early as 2006 when they were doing Dragon Magic. And the game continued to release books for eighteen months after that...
(Oh, and including Essentials there were something like eighteen or nineteen player focused books for 4e. A far cry from 40 years.)

Regardless of where 3e or 4e started to fall apart, they fell apart with many more books than I'm asking for.

How many books were released for 3e before the game started to fall apart? Possibly after they did the four Races of X books and four Complete X books. After that everything was unneeded. But, really, that's hard to say because those subjects could have been combined into one or two books with similar results.

There was too much material there to combine into a book smaller than twice the size of the PHB. Nobody is asking for books that large.

Pathfinder compiled things into two books: magic and combat. I'd argue everything after Ultimate Equipment or maybe the Advanced Race Guide was "bloat country". Which was five or six books. Magic, combat, races, equipment, campaign rules, and the Advanced Player's Guide. But the APG was a whole lot of new classes that was pretty unnecessary and you could combine magic & combat into just "player options".
So you could hit "bloat" in as few as three to five large books.

I really don't care what Pathfinder did. I tried it a bit and they dialed up the power level on a system that already had too much.

Game systems can get unwieldy pretty fast. And once things are broken and bloated, you can't undo it.

Sure. They can get unwieldy pretty fast when you release TONS of books. Nobody here is asking for tons of books.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Never been a soda fan and hate energy drinks. Milkshakes and chips though.

Doctor Pepper. Luckily diet DP is this weird unicorn that I literally can't tell the difference. And neithe can anyone else I have served diet doctor pepper at my house. I just call list "doctor pepper " as a drink option, and don't mention it's diet, and no one can tell, and are shocked if they see the bottle after drinking it.

Diet Coke and Pepsi, though. Super different. I've preferred Diet Coke since I was a kid, but Diet Pepsi is gross. Like fake chocolate gross.

For a while, though, I was as having two sugary drinks a day, at least.

Now, I make dark chocolate mint brownies with the trivia baking mix and honey in place of sugar, milk and cold brew coffee (infused with fresh mint) in place of water, and dark chocolate morsels (at least 80%) mixed in.

I get asked at Ed at least once a week when I'm making the next batch.

im no good at cookies, though.

 

[Zardnaar]

Doctor Pepper. Luckily diet DP is this weird unicorn that I literally can't tell the difference. And neithe can anyone else I have served diet doctor pepper at my house. I just call list "doctor pepper " as a drink option, and don't mention it's diet, and no one can tell, and are shocked if they see the bottle after drinking it.

Diet Coke and Pepsi, though. Super different. I've preferred Diet Coke since I was a kid, but Diet Pepsi is gross. Like fake chocolate gross.

For a while, though, I was as having two sugary drinks a day, at least.

Now, I make dark chocolate mint brownies with the trivia baking mix and honey in place of sugar, milk and cold brew coffee (infused with fresh mint) in place of water, and dark chocolate morsels (at least 80%) mixed in.

I get asked at Ed at least once a week when I'm making the next batch.

im no good at cookies, though.

Honey is basically sugar and it's not really natural. We normally provide chips and wife sometimes bakes or makes cheese balls with crackers.

Once chocolate goes above 75% it tastes like coffee to me. I can eat it up to 85%.