Mearls' Legends and Lore (or, "All Roads Lead to Rome, Redux")

[Saracenus]

I have seen 5E:

The image is something I whipped up during when 4e (WotC) hysteria was fresh and new, you know back in 2008.

Me, I go out and got my game on (4e happens to be by preference) and I am happy.

My friends that I converted to 3.5 from 2e just before 4e's launch are happy playing their bi-weekly Pathfinder RPG campaign. They are happy.

The over a hundred folks that got back into D&D or discovered it for the first time when I helped launch D&D Encounters (DDE) in Portland are out there playing. They are happy.

We have Pathfinder RPG, D&D 3e, D&D4e games filling up the weekly calendar at my local shop. DDE is still going strong (and has spread to most of the stores in the local area) and Pathfinder society now has a day too. The Dungeon Divas (an all women RPG group at the store) just got done with Serenity. Those folks are happy.

If someone wanted to run 1e, 2e or some other earlier version or even a retro-clone I will bet there is an audience here. And I would welcome them with open arms as brothers and sisters.

It used to be there was almost nothing but Warhammer, Magic, and other competitive games filling the schedule.

While WotC was not 100% responsible for this flowering, if they hadn't supported in store play (at a significant cost) most of this would not be happening.

You know what I have found from all this? This forum is not D&D. Its not talking about it. Its not fighting about it. That is all noise. D&D is the act of playing with people around a table and finding their happy, that is D&D. Kicking down doors, killing the monsters, and looting their treasure... that is D&D. Role-playing with my fellow gamers, that is D&D. Stupid puns and jokes at the table, that is D&D. Waiting with baited breath for the die to stop rolling to see if you succeed or fail, that is D&D. Having some fun while doing that, that is D&D.

So stop this pettiness and go out and play some D&D! If there isn't a ready game available, then do what I did and make it happen because arguing what is or isn't D&D is not D&D.

My two coppers,

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I have seen 5E: (...and a bunch of other stuff)

Okay I guess that's it then.

Shut down the forum and turn the lights off.

Last guy out lock the door behind you.

 

[BryonD]

This has clearly stopped being a discussion for you and started in on something personal, so I'm going to remove myself from this.

Nice chatting with you.

Hmm, so you get corrected when you try to substitute "absolutes" into my statement. So you switch to word games and get corrected on that as well. So you go with a cheap shot exit by baselessly claiming "something personal".

I'm not taking it personal, I'm having fun hitting your softballs over the fence.

But, that probably was your best move at this point. So good job.

Good Gaming!

Mod Edit: You might want to consider if this kind of post is your own best move at this point. Because parting shots like this look pretty damn snotty, and will lead some folks think that despite your protestations, it is personal.

Folks, if someone's leaving a discussion, be a good sport and let them do so without throwing spitballs at their back. ~Umbran

 

[Raven Crowking]

I am going to posit that it is possible to create a new game out of 4e that, to an outsider, might look an awful lot like 4e, but which, to someone who really understands and enjoys what 4e has to offer, might feel substantially different. Or even limiting. Possibly even so limiting that using this new system might be difficult (or very difficult) for some current 4e group’s playstyle.

I will further posit that it is possible to create such a game that actually models the way some people play 4e right now. And it might actually facilitate what they want out of the game. To them, it will seem like a true evolution from 4e.

To many people playing 4e now, I would posit that the change and level of change might seem obvious. I would also posit that, for those people to whom the new game seems like a true evolution, the change and level of change might not be so obvious. They might blame 4e players for having a narrow perspective, for not understanding other games, which the new game borrows ideas and mechanics from. They might even argue that there is no real change.

Finally, I am going to posit that this has already happened. More than once, in all likelihood. Except the game being changed wasn’t 4e.

RC

 

[Argyle King]

I am going to posit that it is possible to create a new game out of 4e that, to an outsider, might look an awful lot like 4e, but which, to someone who really understands and enjoys what 4e has to offer, might feel substantially different. Or even limiting. Possibly even so limiting that using this new system might be difficult (or very difficult) for some current 4e group’s playstyle.

I will further posit that it is possible to create such a game that actually models the way some people play 4e right now. And it might actually facilitate what they want out of the game. To them, it will seem like a true evolution from 4e.

To many people playing 4e now, I would posit that the change and level of change might seem obvious. I would also posit that, for those people to whom the new game seems like a true evolution, the change and level of change might not be so obvious. They might blame 4e players for having a narrow perspective, for not understanding other games, which the new game borrows ideas and mechanics from. They might even argue that there is no real change.

Finally, I am going to posit that this has already happened. More than once, in all likelihood. Except the game being changed wasn’t 4e.

RC

I've heard it argued that this has happened with 4E and 4E.E

 

[M.L. Martin]

Finally, I am going to posit that this has already happened. More than once, in all likelihood. Except the game being changed wasn’t 4e.

RC

Nice summary of nearly every edition change.

 

[HolyMan]

I know nothing of the difference between 4E and 4E.E but isn't this sort of like the way things went when 3e came out and then 3.5 (even about the same time frame).

What everyone wonders at is support. WOTC doesn't act like they wish to support a D&D line. Or at least not with the same quality as years gone by.

HM

 

[Saracenus]

HolyMan,

The short answer to your question is no, 4e and the recent Essentials are not the same as the jump from 3.0 to 3.5 at all.

As to your assertion that WotC doesn't want to support the D&D line, I think you would be best served by listening to the 2011 D&D XP Product Seminar here:
Tome Blog Archive Tome DDXP Special: Product Seminar

Now, will this change in how products are produced, marketed, and delivered ultimately be successful? That is a completely different discussion.

But this is all again big meta issues of how a business is run, does this really effect your enjoyment of playing D&D? As a DM or a player do you really sweat this when you sit down at the table?

I can say that the vast majority of folks out there don't.

One thing I make clear to any DM that sits down at a table for me when I am organizing games here locally, "How you feel about company X or product y is not as important as providing those who sit at your table a good time."

We have has several very good judges who couldn't and they bowed out gracefully and ran other things (Shadowrun Missions is very popular at one store around here).

I know one of the folks that helped birth the Ashes of Ashes (Convention only Dark Sun Living Campaign) because they were not satisfied by Living Forgotten Realms or D&D Encounters. This was a big hit at D&D XP. I can tell you the success of that campaign's debut has shown the folks running LFR (and WotC folk that played at their tables) a different way to do a Living Campaign.

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes marvel/despair at the stumbles and mistakes that WotC has made with D&D of late. I just have a hard time constantly arguing about it. It makes me tired and sad. It makes me not want to play because of all the negativity that bleeds out. Then I shake it off and go pick up some dice and rediscover my gamer happy by playing or DMing.

I personally think all the energy that is used to fight the edition wars (or the equally poisonous "WotC is the root of all evil" meme) could be better spent coming up with cool ideas that advance the hobby and make things better for all.

Stalker0 was not satisfied with skill challenges in 4e (and wanted to adapt them for 3e) made a positive contribution by coming up with a solution. I continually get inspiration by reading Piratecat's campaign thread.

I said that this forum is not D&D. I stand by that. But it can be more than a battlefield for fighting over the scraps of RPG territory.

At the end of the day I have two questions I have to ask myself, did I make my hobby better and did I have fun doing it?

Otherwise, why I am I wasting my time with something I don't wan to positively participate in or enjoy?

My two coppers,

 

[HolyMan]

Sorry my post may have come off as another part of "the edition wars" it is not.

To me there is no bad RPG game. The game is what you make it. D&D to me is an experience and social event...

to either have time laughing with friends or

meet new people and bring out the gamer in them.

What I was trying to say (and badly) was that from the first post of this thread it looked liked most people were trying to read between the lines. And wondering what WOTC was going to do to their game.

The podcast says they are bring out a lot of new stuff. But it again isn't geared to a system that is for me. But saying that I will look into the Neverwinter Nights setting to see if a little conversion is in order. (What can I say I'm a gamer.)

HM

 

[Saracenus]

HolyMan,

Some of what I posted in my previous entry was not directed at you specifically. I started by answering your questions and it then expanded into something larger that I have been thinking about for over a year.

So, I am sorry that the full weight of my post was attached to your name. Perhaps it would have been better to have split them in two.

On to developing my theme...

I really struggled with the tribalization of the D&D community at the release of 4e. It was quickly becoming Lord of the Flies. I actually stopped posting on several web forums (and I have never returned since) because every time I tried to share something interesting or positive about my edition preference with others it degenerated into gamer nerd rage at it's worst.

It felt like the chorus from Joss Whedon's musical commentary for Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog:

We're gonna pick pick
Pick pick pick it apart.
Open it up to find the
Tick tick tick of a heart.
A heart, broken.

I had many a soul searching conversation with a few gamer friends that I had tremendous respect for. Those conversations eventually led me to stop worrying about defending "my game" and I went out and just did it. I organized locally, I made sure mail lists I ran were calm resources for gamers of all stripes to share, and I reconnected with folks playing D&D at the table. Mostly as a DM and sometimes as a player.

I am not perfect. I get angry at WotC (I have not met many who haven't at some point). Despite my gripes I ultimately I got involved so I could contribute something positive at the end of the day. In return I get to see folks smile and have fun. Even me.

And that is why I am talking about it now, I have seen a "road to Rome" and it has nothing to do with the edition I am playing, it is the act of playing the game itself.