Mearls on Controller design and At-Will balance

[Ahglock]

but cake without icing is still cake...

I was totally with you up to this point, and then you went and lost all of your credibility.

 

[Nail]

Most DM not affraid to hurt a players feeling will routinely have monsters grabbing the archer....

Okay...see, I hadn't thought of that tactic. That's a keeper.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Folks dps calculations are empty. The maths for the classes is pretty much on track (there are exceptions). The problem as Mearls noted is the wizard is a poor tactical controller.

This is caused by two things which are highlighted by looking at the Invoker and Druid.
1) The wizard's at-will and encounter powers produce limited or no control effects in heroic tier in particular.

2) The wizard's attacks are generally not party friendly, in any tier.

The combination of these leads to the wizard being about damage and that damage output being controlled by tactics/situation. Hence rampant disparities in experience with the Class.

The situation changes once the wizard can access daily powers reliably each encounter, which should be around 5th level for LFR style games with Veteran's Armour. (Note Barbarian's have the same issue atm with the need to access Rages.)

This is why Grasping Shadows from Dragon Magazine is the best Wizard Encounter 1 power. Its a duration burst with reasonable damage, and a status effect, which with tactics can be triggered 2 times.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

You may have missed my point.

Marking is a class ability.

Wall of Fire is a Daily attack 9.


...there's clearly a difference there that's not related to "controll".

So let me try making my point again:

What is the Wizard class ability that defines her as a "controller"?

Who says it has to be a class ability? I don't recall the PHB saying that roles were defined by class abilities, just that certain classes filled certain rolls.

To better illustrate the point, look at the Multiclass feats. What do they give you? Cleric and Warlord MC feats give you a once a day heal spell, which allows you to tap into that aspect of being a "leader". The Rogue MC feat gives you access to Sneak Attack once per encounter, and the Ranger does the same with Hunter's Quarry. With the Fighter MC feat you can get his Weapon Talent bonus once per encounter. Notice, all of these are class abilities, as you pointed out.

Then, of course, we get to the Wizard... What do you get there? One of their At-Wills as an encounter power.... If that doesn't tell you that the "controller" roll is defined by the powers, then I don't know what will.

 

[Nail]

Who says it has to be a class ability?

No one.

But give me one "thing" that defines the Fighter....you'll probably say "Combat Challenge".

How about Cleric? ...you'll probably say "Healing Word".

The Rogue? "Sneak attack".

Etc.

All I'm sayin' is: A class can be strongly defined by just one class feature. IMO, that's best. The wizard should be like that too.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

No one.

But give me one "thing" that defines the Fighter....you'll probably say "Combat Challenge".

How about Cleric? ...you'll probably say "Healing Word".

The Rogue? "Sneak attack".

Etc.

All I'm sayin' is: A class can be strongly defined by just one class feature. IMO, that's best. The wizard should be like that too.

How about "At-Wills that attack every NAD"? (if you include the illusion ones) Or how about "The ability to throw out large AoE effects, large burst power, status inducing effects and big multi-square forced movement effects. Or any combination thereof."

Or to break it down further, think of it from the literature perspective. When you think of a classic "Fighter" hero, you think of someone that take on many opponents at once and protect his allies. This is exemplified in the Marking, Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority class abilities (and further so in his powers such as the ones that allow him to mark for a whole encounter, or things like Interposing Shield and the powers that grant AC bonuses to allies).

When you think of a "Cleric"-type hero, you probably think of a magical hero. Again, this is exemplified in the Healing Word class ability (and further in other healing powers...) and perhaps the Channel Divinity feature (Essentially, Divine Intervention on demand).

When you think of a "Wizard" in fantasy literature, what do you think of? Usually something like Merlin calling forth the Dragon's Breath for Uther, or his ability to Scry. Perhaps you think of Gandalf battling Saruman, or the Balrog on the bridge. These are powers, not things that can be distilled down into class abilities like the others. Even those others have powers within their builds that accentuate the class abilities, as I stated above. The Wizard, to an extent, has that as well if you consider his spells as an extension of the cantrips...but I think that's stretching it a bit far (not to mention that you don't pick those up when you multiclass).

Basically, when I think Wizard I think someone casting powerful spells, and that's exactly what multiclassing gives me. Their other "class feature" that goes along with this is their free rituals. The things I mentioned before, like Scrying, can be accessed through the appropriate rituals, which the Wizard gets for free. I don't see a problem with this, other than the fact that you're just trying to fit the Wizard into a neat little box in line with the rest of the classes. I just don't see how that's going to happen, nor how it makes sense with fantasy characters in general.

 

[Diirk]

Another flaw in typical DPR analysis is that a lot of theses characters used for comparisons are monkeys. Take the DPR output of a 4th level ranger with 20 STR who is using two waraxes with weapon focus, improved quarry and two weapon fighting focus. Does his impressive DPR includes the fact that he's gonna get KILLED?

All offense and no defense means johnny will get slaughtered.

It depends. Rogues and rangers both get quite a few escape tools that boost their survivability alot, even if they charge into what looks like dangerous situations. Also striker damage can end a fight very quickly. I find the rogue in my group seldom forgoes his extra sneak attack damage, and I certainly don't go easy on him !

Most DM not affraid to hurt a players feeling will routinely have monsters grabbing the archer.

This is actually of somewhat limited usefulness; grab is a str attack (ignoring weapon mods) vs reflex. A 5th level ranger, for example, will have +1 class, +5 dex, +1 amulet, +2 level = 19 reflex defense. Its not quite clear on how monsters should make a grab roll (weapon attack - weapon mod from ph ? use str skill check? Those should be equivalent for players but are vastly different for monsters.), however whichever method you choose you'll probably end up with about a 40-50% chance that you'll successfully grab them. An orc eye of gruumsh for example, is +10 spear attack, or +7 str check.

Then once you have grabbed them, keep in mind its just acrobatics vs reflex save as a move action to escape. Again with an eye of gruumsh, you're looking at +12 acrobatics (trained, +5 dex, +2 level) vs a reflex defense of 14. Well gee, I wonder if that will work. Then they can just use a power that lets them shift before their attack, and you accomplished pretty much nothing.

Sure a wizard or warlock might have trouble with grabs, but rogues and rangers you can pretty much forget about.

 

[Nail]

These are powers, not things that can be distilled down into class abilities like the others.

You might be over thinking this.

Cleric has a class feature that easily defines the class: Healing Word. ...and this class feature is a power. So it's definitely possible for a class feature to be a power, if that's the way you like it.

Looking at Wizard class features, we have:

• Arcane Implement Mastery,
• Cantrips,
• Ritual casting, and
• Spellbook.

Looks like a great list! ...and yet Wizard has problems as a poorly defined class, which - by the designer's own admission - doesn't fit into the "controlled" role very well.

So....it might be nifty to add a class feature which better defines and deliniates the class.

That's all I'm sayin'. Nothing earth-shattering. YMMV, and all o' that.

 

[Nail]

Then once you have grabbed them, keep in mind its just acrobatics vs reflex save as a move action to escape. Again with an eye of gruumsh, you're looking at +12 acrobatics (trained, +5 dex, +2 level) vs a reflex defense of 14. Well gee, I wonder if that will work. Then they can just use a power that lets them shift before their attack, and you accomplished pretty much nothing.

It turns out the "escape" action allows a shift as part of the escape. So no need to use a power to shift.

 

[Nail]

...now, that said: If two orcs grab the archer, he'll have to escape both of them. And that chance is lower, over-all.