Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[Mad Mac]

Agreed. Physically, the Ogre Mage isn't much stronger than a regular CR 3 Ogre. They'd be CR 4 at best, if it wasn't for the fact that giving a low CR critter a 9d6 cone of cold would be completely insane.

As for the "Master Manipulator" bit that refuses to go away, they can cast Charm Person and Polymorph once a day each. That's it. That isn't remotely enough to give the Ogre Mage some sort of massive "Social CR" bonus, unless every petty Sorc or Wiz is some sort of social god. (And don't get me started on the Bard. They'd have to be CR=levelx2 or something)

So no, I don't think the ability to try and sneak up on the party to cast a single, so-so 1st level spell that even the party fighter has around a 50/50 chance of saving against is enough to double it's CR. Nor is the ability to run away and live to suck another day. Ogre Mages are awesome at running away, that I'll admit. They make way better cowards than manipulators. It's just sort of pointless.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

However, if the CR of the creature has been dramatically overestimated, as in the CR is trying to reflect some sort of social CR, rather than a CHALLENGE rating, then the party of 6th level characters expend 25% of their resources as they waltz over the Ogre Mage AND they get extra xp to boot.

Wouldn't it make more sense for a CR 8 creature to be an equal combat challenge, regardless of what that creature is?

The question is, at least from my point of view, if the CR only reflects the monster in a direct combat confrontation, or if the CR reflects the monster when it makes the most out of its given abilities. The follow-up question is simply if a result of the monster using its abilities is a challenge only if it uses those abilities against the characters facing it, or if they factor into the challenge also when the abilities are not directly aimed against the characters.

And why should a CR 8 creature be an equal combat challenge if the entry points out that the creature in question prefers to avoid direct physical combat? Should we lower the CR because the monster will rarely be bested in direct combat, or is the CR correct because it is harder to overcome the creature in the first place (and by overcome, I don't mean "slaughter" in that context).

As far as I see it, the CR is more than a simple "combat efficiency index". It's a measure of how hard a creature is to overcome, true, but not in the context of direct combat only. Overcoming a monster can, as is mentioned in the DMG, be accomplished in a lot of different ways, depending on the situation and the ingenuity of the players. Should I award "full-CR" XP only when the PCs face every monster in direct combat? Then we'd be back to the "slaughter for experience" mentality that was actually attempted to overcome in the core rules back when 3E came out.

And by the way....how about it? If an Ogre Mage gets to charm the group barbarian, and manages to make him oppose his own group, is that a separate challenge to overcome the barbarian, and will it grant separate XP to the group, or is that part of the challenge the Ogre Mage poses from the start?

 

[Mad Mac]

If a 1st level Sorc manages to charm the party Barbarian and turn him against the party, does the group get extra XP for defeating him?

 

[Hussar]

I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm not sure about charm. I know that the xp is factored in for summoning. Looks similar.

Challenge rating is simply a guide for how strong a given creature is in combat. Period. It does not measure any sort of intangible advantage that creature may or may not have in a given campaign. If it did, then every king, regardless of level, would be a CR 20 challenge, as was mentioned earlier.

If the creature always runs away from a direct confrontation, then it should bloody well be worth less xp than one that stands up and fights. Makes no sense otherwise. You're handing out free xp by having a weak creature that buggers off whenever the big boys come out to play. Reducing the CR simply reflects that.

 

[Sarellion]

Charm Person is a nice spell but still limited. I wonder why it is hyped so much as the mastermind´s control spell.

The above example of the OM charming a barbarian and turning against the group wouldn´t work. The charmed person will not do obviously harmful things and the OM has to win an opposed charisma check in the first place to give orders. Otherwise he will be regarded as friend and ally but that doesn´t mean that the charmed person will do everything the Mage wants.

Also I don´t know how the OM would keep up his guise in the court of a noble mentioned somewhere in this thread. He is still an ogre and doesn´t know how to behave in human society (in the standard settings at least). How many people do you think the OM will charm? The whole court? Without modifying charm person totally impossible as the duration is too short and even modified, one charm per day is not enough to do such a stunt.

The Ogre Mage can establish dominance in ogre or similar society where his powers will gain him a position as leader or shaman.

 

[Mad Mac]

Yup. Charm Person lasts 9 hours for an Ogre Mage, and he casts it 1/day. So he can make one "friend" a day, at best. If they don't make their save, or realize that he's trying to charm them. And as mentioned, you don't use Charm Person to get combat thralls. The Ogre Mages +3 charisma bonus isn't going to reliably win opposed charisma checks from his one potential "friend of the day" either.

Also, the stock Ogre Mage is entirely untrained in social skills, choosing instead to focus on concentration, spellcraft, Listen, and Spot. And with one use polymorph, he can't switch disguises during the day. Oh, and it last 9 minutes per day, to boot. His mastermind potential is non-existant.

 

[Mad Mac]

duplicate post

 

[Mark CMG]

I'll start a new thread for my concerns . . .

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=169471

 

[kigmatzomat]

I don't have a problem with the Mearls OM except that....it isn't an oni and as a long-time player, I want the OM to be oni.

Oni are a hard thing to quantify but it's pretty common that they fly, are able to sneak into sealed rooms, can appear to be other people, and have some ability to control others. Many sources state that oni's purpose is to corrupt mortals so that they become oni in the next life. They are strong, relative to normal people, but primarily sneaky. The direct translation of 1e/2e materials without looking at the specific mechanics has screwed with the effective flavor of the race. Older versions of Charm were much longer lasting than 3.x Charm Person and the original flavor could be replicated with Charm Monster.

So convert Charm Person to Charm Monster but make it 2/day in exchange for dropping Cone of Cold. Leave Sleep 1/day as a way to take out groups of weak creatures and as a semi-offensive SLA turn at-will darkness to 3/day Web. Replace troublesome polymorph to "shapshifter:alternate form-any medium or large humanoid-form and gain +10 to disguise to impersonate individual", add one HD (+1 BAB, +7hp, +1Ref/Will, +4 skill points, +1 feat) and toss in some social & stealth skills.

Now you've got an opponent that has a hard to resist Charm power, enough hp & SR to survive an encounter with an 8th level party, a decent ability to blood the party, and the sneaky to make trouble.

 

[Ripzerai]

As for the "Master Manipulator" bit that refuses to go away, they can cast Charm Person and Polymorph once a day each. That's it. That isn't remotely enough to give the Ogre Mage some sort of massive "Social CR" bonus, unless every petty Sorc or Wiz is some sort of social god. (And don't get me started on the Bard. They'd have to be CR=levelx2 or something).

Not for a base ogre mage, not in D&D 3.5. But sorcerers and wizards are rare and exceptional among humans; there are surely as many classed ogre magi, proportionately, as there are classed humans (though I suppose that's arguable).

Ordinary humans have no power to transform or charm. Ordinary magi, then, start with an advantage in that department - not enough to make them gods, but an advantage. And that advantage only gets greater as they level up.

At least, that's what a lot of people in this thread are advocating.