Mearls: The core of D&D

That seems a drastic overstatement to me.

But hold hard, friend. What if it is neither drastic, nor an overstatement, to the speaker? What if that is not hyperbolic -- I, for one, see little reason to believe that it is so. The speaker does not come across as angry, or ranting (to me), and provides an example of exactly what he means.

It is quite possible -- rational, even -- to see a difference that renders two things no longer the same, without assuming that everyone else must automatically see it so.

It is not "I don't believe X is Y" but rather and you should not either or and you should not say it is which cause problems, IMHO and IME. And, also, IMHO and IME, there is precious little difference between I don't believe X is Y and you should not say it is and I believe X is Y and you should not say it is not.

"I can understand how you feel that way, but I feel differently" is, AFAICT, the only real common ground that can be found. "Common ground" that is based on simply not speaking an unpopular opinion is illusory at best.

I do agree with you that

We might all want to reconsider use of absolutes like this, and whether they really serve our cases and causes well.

but I think that it is statements that try to restrict expression that actually tend to polarize the discussion. When we are concerned with what the other person's position can or cannot be, what they can or cannot believe, what they can or cannot feel, that drives a wedge between sides, so that no common ground can be found, because, until then, no actual "attack" has taken place.

YMMV, though.

And, as I am thankfully not a moderator, I am looking at it from a theoretical, rather than a practical, standpoint. It is easier to prevent unpopular opinions from being expressed than it is to then reign in the backlash against those opinions once expressed.

But, until someone demands agreement, or makes claims of "fact", I don't see it as an edition war.


RC
 

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That seems a drastic overstatement to me.

In such discussions, we often quickly slip to expressive, but hyperbolic, statements that tend to polarize the discussion.
Would brushing off a point of view as a "drastic overstatement" count?


Having said them, we tend to have to defend them, and that drives our positions to ever greater extremes. A wedge gets driven between sides, so that no common ground can be found.
It doesn't sound like you are LOOKING for common ground. There are a significant number of people clearly dissatisfied. Are you reaching out and looking for ways to defend an opposing point? Or are you simply dismissing out of hand and deepening the wedge?

We might all want to reconsider use of absolutes like this, and whether they really serve our cases and causes well.
Your comment seems much more "absolute" in that he was expressing his own subjective view and you were rejecting other people's views across the board.
 

We might all want to reconsider use of absolutes like this, and whether they really serve our cases and causes well.

Since I seem to be the cause of this particular furor...

Though it should go without saying, I'll make it clear (I thought I had in my post; I did apply "IMHO" to quite a few of the statements), that everything in my post is all my opionion.

I didn't (and don't) intend to make this an "Edition Wars" thread, or to say my opinion is more valid than anyone elses.

That said, I do play 4E, and have played all the previous editions (including Pathfinder), and to my mind, 4E is the widest depature from the points that Mearls himself made. And THAT is the point I was trying (apparently unsucessfully?) to get across.
 

My system considers, as does D&D, damage in two types: hit point damage and special effects. Special effects occur when hit points are inappropriate ("I throw sand in his eyes"), but without hit points, an all special effect system falls down under its own weight.
Can you explain why you think ordinary attacks and wounds should be handled with hit points instead of "special effects"?
 

Can you explain why you think ordinary attacks and wounds should be handled with hit points instead of "special effects"?

Probably not well enough! :lol:

The flippant side of me wants to say "decades of experience". As I said in the bit you quoted, "all special effect system falls down under its own weight".

For genre simulation, it is desireable that Conan not be evicerated by just any successful attack.....certainly this is not what REH describes. Despite statements to the contrary in this thread, Howard does describe Conan as having suffered minor injuries, on multiple occasions.

You could, I suppose, have a game that says "On each successful hit, roll on the Hit Results table, and apply to the character", but unless there was a seperate chart for each creature form (biped humanoid, quadruped, centaurian, biped nonhumanoid, ooze, two-headed biped, three-headed biped, three-headed winged quadruped, etc.) the system would offer as many (or more) WTF moments as a pure hp system (without special effects), would be more cumbersome to use, and would offer what in way of amelioration for those deficiencies?

You could offer a system where each player chooses specific tactics against a matrix that determines result, with the same problems, as well as (probably) a far slower combat resolution.

You could offer a system where choice of tactic instead causes a penalty to the attack roll, and causes the special effect when successful....but then why would one not choose "Kill my opponent" (or the closest thing thereunto) every time? Even if the PCs did not so choose, because the odds were against them in succeeding, the GM rolls far more attacks than the players. There is a reason why my Get the Drop allows you to have a chance to make a more deadly attack, but still targets hit points.

PCs in "special effects" rich games are well advised to avoid combat, unless (as in 4e) the "special effects" themselves are on a diet (i.e., paralysis "lite")....in which case you still need another mechanic to resolve the combat.

In short, while I cannot rule out the possibility of a great non-hit point combat system, I have yet to see one that works as well. To paraphrase another poster from upthread (and, yes, I am too lazy to check who it was), hit points are the worst system there is....except all the other ones.

But, for my money, "hit points + special effects" is gold. And, not surprisingly, that has been the standard for rpgs since Gary and Dave put pen to paper.


RC
 

The flippant side of me wants to say "decades of experience". As I said in the bit you quoted, "all special effect system falls down under its own weight".

I'd concur with this.

Pure status based systems tend to bog down in mind numbing complexity, particularly since they are driven by the desire to achieve 'greater realism' and typically keep finding themselves not meeting this goal in practice - which the designers typically try to address with even greater complexity.

Essentially, each wound becomes a debuff. Buffing and debuffing is the single most complex and frustrating thing about the D&D play experience, and you would have a system were every single hit led to a debuff.

So you have the same problems with resolving buff stacking as D&D has in spades. For example:

1) Suppose you take a minor wound to the leg, hense -1 Dex or maybe -5 to movement rate. Now, should or should not a minor wound to the arm stack with this? What about a second minor wound to the leg? What about a third? A tenth? You end up with essentially tons of named bonuses which must be compared with each other.
2) How many minor wounds does it take before you escalate to a moderate wound? If the answer is non zero, then you can be scratched to death by the most trivial of causes. If the answer is zero, then you can be a mass of hundreds of cuts and bruises and still be no more wounded than the guy who has only one scratch.
3) How do you deal with the anticlimatic death spiral, where each wound tends to make it increasingly unlikely that the fight isn't going to be completely one sided? Aren't you in fact going to make magical healing even more important if you want a fast paced game??

And what is combat like when everyone is walking around with 12 debuffs that they have to add to their calculations? And if not 12 debuffs because wounds are rare, how do you deal with the fact that the player feels like he has no control over the fate of his character because he's always one unlucky roll from death.

Quite often you add lots of extra complexity to no net purpose. Maybe you could get a computer to handle it, but I notice all or virtually all computer games use hit points rather than any of the more complex systems that sometimes show up in PnP.

I've had the same adding complexity to no effect problem with implementing called shots in my game. It seems like there are circumstances where this would make sense that you could target a specific thing, but what you find is that its very hard to deal with two issues. The first is that it's very hard to have a system where called shots are a reasonable option, and not yet an obviously better tactic than not making a called shot. Typically, called shots will either be so inefficient of a tactic that they are never or almost never worth it (in which case the extra complexity probably isn't worth it), or else they are used in every attack and the net effect is exactly the same as if you reduced every ones AC and/or hit points by some amount. The second problem with called shots is that you now have the additional complexity of dealing with what a 'miss' means. If I call a shot on the elephants head, I could have missed it, or I could have hit another part of the body. Without some way of tracking how I missed, I have no way of knowing. Unless you want to implement the complexities of something like 'Aces and Eights', the system probably won't actually feel more realistic.

You could offer a system where each player chooses specific tactics against a matrix that determines result, with the same problems, as well as (probably) a far slower combat resolution.

You could offer a system where choice of tactic instead causes a penalty to the attack roll, and causes the special effect when successful....but then why would one not choose "Kill my opponent" (or the closest thing thereunto) every time?

Answer: Because 'render my opponent helpless' is such a comparitively easy option in the system that I should chose that tactic every time. For example, if the system makes crippling an opponent so that they can't move very easy, then the default tactic will be cutting the legs out from under the foe and then finishing them off at range. Or if the system makes cutting off the opponent's hands so that they can't attack too easy, then the right tactic is always doing that first and then finishing them off at your leisure.

In short, while I cannot rule out the possibility of a great non-hit point combat system, I have yet to see one that works as well.

The only alternative to hit points I've seen work well is a damage track where each wound produces the same abstract consequence. That in my experience tends to work well for games that lie to either side of D&D's sweet spot - either grimmer and grittier or else more cartoonish. But on the whole, I find that hit points are indeed the worst system ever except for every alternative. Back in my naive days when I had only limited experience of systems other than D&D, I used to blast D&D's lack of 'realism' as well.

Not so much after 25 years of gaming.
 

Or "disassociated" which doesn't mean what its adherents seem to want it to. :p
Let's try and map these abstract terms to real world concepts then.

Hit points: An ability to withstand wounds or blows through physical factors, experience or luck. An elephant will have more of these than a mouse. An SAS officer will have more than a pastry chef.

Armor class: A combination of physical protection and nimbleness to avoid physical blows. A nimble person wearing armor will have a better armor class than a flatfooted person in a t-shirt and jeans.

Healing surges: A second wind in battle, like those that a marathon runner gets, or having wounds heal because you're being given a pep talk. Only now we're really stretching it and things are getting difficult to visualise and map to recognizable phenomena.

The third one, for me, is a bridge too far.
 

Here is the list:



When everything on that list has been re-defined and re-valued, what common ground really remains?

You know, I have this axe which has been in the family since 1750. Sure, its on its 4th head and 6th handle, but you know, its the same pre-American Revolution axe, right? According to Mearls, it is.

I'm not buying it.

I'm wondering what motivates a lead designer to write an article like that, actually.

Maybe Mearls had an "axe to grind." :p
 

Let's try and map these abstract terms to real world concepts then.

Hit points: An ability to withstand wounds or blows through physical factors, experience or luck. An elephant will have more of these than a mouse. An SAS officer will have more than a pastry chef.

A high level human will of course have more hit points than an elephant, which since human beings are widely regarded as not being quite as hard to kill as elephants might be a bridge too far for people who aren't you.

Armor class: A combination of physical protection and nimbleness to avoid physical blows. A nimble person wearing armor will have a better armor class than a flatfooted person in a t-shirt and jeans.

If the purpose of wearing armour is to make it harder to hit you, the idea that it needs to be 'proofed' to show how tough it is a slightly hard one to fathom. I know, 'hit' doesn't actually mean 'hit'.

Healing surges: A second wind in battle, like those that a marathon runner gets, or having wounds heal because you're being given a pep talk. Only now we're really stretching it and things are getting difficult to visualise and map to recognizable phenomena.

The third one, for me, is a bridge too far.

Some people turn out, in real life, to be able to carry on fighting despite receiving injuries that subsequently kill them. Or get knocked unconscious by injuries, and recover on their own. Or get up an carry on moving despite being badly injured.

I don't think any one aspect of hit points is particularly more realistic or less realistic than any other. They're a measurement of how hard it is to put someone out of this fight, nothing more, and that's at least as much to do with determination and morale as physical injury. Adrenaline does strange things to a body.
 

I don't think any one aspect of hit points is particularly more realistic or less realistic than any other. They're a measurement of how hard it is to put someone out of this fight, nothing more, and that's at least as much to do with determination and morale as physical injury. Adrenaline does strange things to a body.

It would be an interesting hybrid hit point model for adrenaline to have hit points that accumulated over the course of the fight. In Basic D&D, you might get one hit die per round. Higher level guys aren't any harder to take out by surprise (well, better protected with armor and magic, but no more hit points than their lower-level counterparts). Higher level guys just keep adding hit points over the course of the fight, and thus can last longer.

Rolling it would be really interesting, though a royal pain to manage for monsters. You've basically got a trade off of trying to take something down before it gets really steamed versus pacing your own moxie.

In a lot of ways, it would be replacing regular hit points with 3E or 4E temporary hit points. They all go away at the end of the fight anyway. So healing isn't an issue. You just need healing to handle actual wounds. That would have to be a separate track, either conditions or basing a bare minimum of actual "hits" off of Con, size, or such.
 

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