Mental saves

[FreeTheSlaves]

Ok I'm still a bit at a loss on what's going on with int/wis/cha saves. There seems to a be a bit of a mish/mash on what saves against what and that's coupled with wisdom seemingly the stat that really matters.

I am aware of the pitfalls of enforced symmetry, but how about splitting the saves up a bit more fairly. Off the cuff I can get:

Int - illusions, that deceive the mind
Wis - charms, that manipulate feelings
Cha - fear effects, that overwhelm self control

The divisions above are a bit arbitrary I know, but if possible I'd also like to hit that elusive target of the charisma dump stat. I think it would be pretty poetic if the cha dumpsters ended up with cowardly characters.

 

[The Shadow]

I also thought of giving illusion saves to Int. It's kind of irking me how they're giving lip service to saves for all stats, but Dex, Con, and Wis remain king.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Int - illusions, that deceive the mind
Wis - charms, that manipulate feelings
Cha - fear effects, that overwhelm self control

I'd reverse Wisdom and Charisma. Charisma is force of personality, so should be the save against charms and compulsions. Wisdom has historically included willpower, which allows one to overcome fear.

Other than that, I support this. All attributes should be important for all characters to at least some degree.

 

[DogBackward]

The problem is that Intelligence and Wisdom are still two separate stats, and don't need to be. It's another of those "But it's always been that way!" holdovers. Simply put: Wisdom needs to go. Perception is a factor of mental reflexes and quick thinking, and so belongs with Intelligence. Insight is just about perceiving social cues and processing that information, so again fits with Intelligence. Willpower is far more of a "force of personality" thing, and thus should be tied to Charisma. And... those are really the only two things Wisdom is for. Other than divine casting, which easily falls to Charisma. Though I'd note that I think Bluff should be an Intelligence skill instead of Charisma, since it's about using cunning to trick an opponent.

As for saves, it then becomes easy to put saves against Illusion under Intelligence and saves against Charm and Compulsion under Charisma. Use your quick wits to see past something that's trying to trick your mind, and use your force of personality to resist people trying to subvert your will.

Right, now that that's done... let's talk about Strength and Constitution...

 

[slobo777]

The problem is that Intelligence and Wisdom are still two separate stats, and don't need to be. It's another of those "But it's always been that way!" holdovers. Simply put: Wisdom needs to go. Perception is a factor of mental reflexes and quick thinking, and so belongs with Intelligence. Insight is just about perceiving social cues and processing that information, so again fits with Intelligence. Willpower is far more of a "force of personality" thing, and thus should be tied to Charisma. And... those are really the only two things Wisdom is for. Other than divine casting, which easily falls to Charisma. Though I'd note that I think Bluff should be an Intelligence skill instead of Charisma, since it's about using cunning to trick an opponent.

As for saves, it then becomes easy to put saves against Illusion under Intelligence and saves against Charm and Compulsion under Charisma. Use your quick wits to see past something that's trying to trick your mind, and use your force of personality to resist people trying to subvert your will.

Right, now that that's done... let's talk about Strength and Constitution...

I suppose in the debate about multiple intelligence versus general intelligence you come out as an uncompromising supporter of the latter?

I would say I have a good ability to pick up "lore" - I can learn a computer programming language fairly quickly for example. However, I have a low perception, and often cannot find things right in front of me. Now I'm not a fantasy character, but I don't mind if a fantasy system's stats can give a nod to this kind of split in mental abilities, it seems just fine based on my experience.

 

[DogBackward]

I suppose in the debate about multiple intelligence versus general intelligence you come out as an uncompromising supporter of the latter?

In a tabletop game? Yes (though maybe not so much "uncompromising"). Especially one focused on adventure and action rather than social intrigue or mystery. While you can do those things in D&D, that's not what it's built for. And despite the claims of some, the way a system is built does have a huge impact on the types of games that are best run using said system.

If you're talking about some real-world debate about something, then I dunno what you mean.

I would say I have a good ability to pick up "lore" - I can learn a computer programming language fairly quickly for example. However, I have a low perception, and often cannot find things right in front of me. Now I'm not a fantasy character, but I don't mind if a fantasy system's stats can give a nod to this kind of split in mental abilities, it seems just fine based on my experience.

You're trained in Knowledge, but not in Perception.

Obviously, the issue is far more complex in the real world. But when it comes to a game, we don't need to model the real world. We need just enough to cover the bases and make it interesting. Wisdom as a stat simply isn't needed; it's clutter, and in a game, that's bad.

If you want to talk about tradition, and the "absent-minded professor" archetype... there are two issues to this. The first is that, traditionally, that archetype does not exist in fantasy. The wise, lore-filled wizard is generally very perceptive. The second is that there's nothing stopping you from doing that archetype anyway; don't train in Perception, and then simply choose not to make a lot of active Perception checks.

 

[Li Shenron]

Int - illusions, that deceive the mind

I'd reverse Wisdom and Charisma. Charisma is force of personality, so should be the save against charms and compulsions. Wisdom has historically included willpower, which allows one to overcome fear.

I support the combination of these two.

Illusions are a bit half-way, but I agree that Int is somewhat more appropriate than Wis but both could work (and OTOH Wis is already used against being deceived with bluffing, so it may still be appropriate against being deceived with illusionism).

For instance a strong illusion that creates a neat and sharp image can be saved against by logically realizing (Int) that the caster made a "design" mistake, such as creating the illusion of an object that just cannot be like that (such as an object in a position where it wouldn't hold, or a creature with eyes too large to fit its skull - think the famous alien autopsy hoax).

At the same time a weak illusion that creates a not-so-neat image can be saved against by simply noticing (Wis) that is semi-transparent or that if moving, its movement repeats in a loop after a few second.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Strength: Things that can be broken, climbed out of, etc. (web, etc.)
Dexterity: Things that can be avoided (fireball, breath weapons, etc.)
Constitution: Things that can be shrugged off if you're tough enough (poison, disease, etc.)
Intelligence: Things that can be figured out (illusions, maze, etc.)
Charisma: Things that can be resisted by strong sense of "self," individuality, free will (charms, compulsions, fear, etc.)
Wisdom: ????

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'd reverse Wisdom and Charisma. Charisma is force of personality, so should be the save against charms and compulsions. Wisdom has historically included willpower, which allows one to overcome fear.

I was thinking similarly too, but then how do we reconcile 'confidence'?

The Bard has confidence for public performance and the Paladin has confidence to strike boldly into the enemy midst.

It's that path that leads charisma to be being the stat to counter fear.

(Perhaps 'Courage' is the better term) [Edit]

 

[mlund]

Hm, considering all the overlap I'd almost be inclined to say that Wisdom could be rolled as a save in place of any Intelligence or Charisma save. Pretty much every attack type that they save against would've been a "Will Save" in 3E (Wisdom) or an attack vs. Will Defense (4E higher of Wisdom or Charisma). Yes, it makes Wisdom better for saving throws, but on the flip side Charisma is so much more important that Wisdom in social interactions while Intelligence has basically limitless Lore skills to apply to. Maybe let Intelligence grant additional languages like it did in 3E and call it square.

- Marty Lund