Merchant wagon for the party

[Lilloh]

Im Dming a party of adventurers. They are all crafters of some sort.
A gemcutter (wizard), a weaponsmith (fighter), an amorer (cleric), trapsmith (rogue)
I know that they are wanting to acquire a wagon for travel. Some kind of mobile shop, from where they can sell their loot, their mundane items, and superior items of their own creation. They want to hire 2-3 trustable merchant apprentices who can see to the shop, when they go adventuring.
I think I want to let them do I, but I see a couple of problems: I don’t want for it to take up a lot of game time. I don’t want them to make a fortune, but neither for them to think it is not worth their time.
What will the pay to an apprentice be per month? What sort of contract will they make? Can the apprentice sell his own items free of charge? Will they need to hire guards?
If they use the craftskill to make items, the individual price for each item wil be easy to deal with, but will they be able to use the wagon to make a living in a city as I with the profession skill?

Any good ideas?

 

[Sekhmet]

First, hire a contractor to find merchants for you.
Have the merchants tell the contractor what is necessary for the venture, have the contractor tell the players. This will take about a week.
After that, you have to buy a caravan, hire guards, buy a shop in multiple cities (or trade exclusively with trade cities).
The merchants will take a meager wage (a handful of SP/day), plus a commission of whatever they sell for the party.
The guards (depending on their level) will take a wage, and will require a leader who will be a hireling of at least 4th level.
They'll need a lawyer who can represent them and all of their goods/properties/hirelings in courts, take care of taxes and find property. He'll also need a wage.

You can assume at least a quarter of all profits will go towards funding the operation.
Anywhere from a quarter to half of all profits are based on "luck" - What is going to be sold? Is anyone buying that item this week? Are you in a location that can benefit from your trade? Are you trying to sell armor in a dwarven city? Are you embroiled in a nasty conflict with a local merchant's or thieve's guild that is irritated that you showed up with a whole bunch of goods that they won't profit from?

In the end, the profit the players will receive will be about 25-50% of the profit they would make if they sold it all themselves.

Spoiler

But man, is it all convenient and worth it so that you don't have to worry about handling it all yourself, using game time to craft/sell or handle your business.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

If you're familiar with the DMG II, there is an Apprentice feat that allows you to acquire a level 1 NPC that you train. The Apprentice actually pays you, because you're teaching him or her skills, and levels when you level. As per the feat, you are expected to spend 8 hours a week training your apprentice, which may not line up with an adventurer's schedule.

Alternately, in that book is information for hireling specialists. there is a chart for how to stat the appropriate hireling, based off the Hireling's level, key ability score, skill modifier for the appropriate skill, and bonuses such as feats, masterwork gear, etc. This chart gives you the amount of gold to pay this specialist per day.

As for how well you'll be able to sell from the wagon really all depends upon how much your DM is cooperative with your idea. If your DM is willing to tailor the community around your business and say "15 villagers went to your wagon for services today" vs. "The villagers are afraid of dangerous looking strangers" or "Your reputation for having gone to the depths of the undead keep have lead to the villagers being wary of you, and the church after you to cleanse your soul..." etc, etc. Ultimately, talk to your DM about how to do the business part.

At higher levels, consider a Daern's Instant Fortress as your portable shop and bags of holding for your inventory. Nothing says "Ta-Da, We're Here! Come and See!" like a large metal tower springing from a cube.

 

[Lilloh]

Cool response

Im not familiar with DMG II Apprentice feat and rules for hiring. But I think one of my players have it, so I will look into it.

I am the DM so it will be me who decide villager’s reaction, government issues and thieves guilds reaction to the mobile shop. As well as deciding if the location that can benefit from their trade.

They are only 4th level, so I think for starters they will hire an apprentice/hireling at 5 sp /day. Im not good at commission, but is it fair to say that 10% for what they sell for the party?
What about what they craft themselves? Isnt that also 10% because they are paid?

What about taxes and documents that allow you to sell stuff in the village/city. What will the prices be?

“In the end, the profit the players will receive will be about 25-50% of the profit they would make if they sold it all themselves.”
If they make a shop, am I then right to assume, that they will be able to sell at 100% value, rather than the 50% value?

Here’s what I gather:

INITIAL EXPENSE
Cart 15 gp (Cart mwk + 300)
Light horse (draft) 75 gp
Bit and bridle 2 gp
Saddle 5 gp
A price of 97 gp will get them started.

DAILY EXPENSE
Apprentise 5 cp
Guard (3) 3 sp per day 10 cp
Stabling per day 5 cp
Feeding per day 3 cp
Taxes ?
License ?

Lets say that they have loot and crafted items for a total of 1000 gp. Im not good with numbers, so pleae help me out. They decide to stay for a month in a city, where they do some adventuring on the side.

If they just sold that loot, following the normal rules of 50%, they would get 500 gp. If they had a shop and sold at 100% they would get 1000 gp minus their expenses.
Apprentise 5 cp x 30 = 150
Guard (3) 3 sp per day 10 cp x 30 = 300
Stabling per day 5 cp x 30 = 150
Taxes ?
License ?

Expenses totalling 600 cp = 60 gp, a profit of 9940
So Taxes, license and commision would have to be high to make it a bad deal for the PCs. I don’t want them to get rich!

I’m looking for something that is easy and quick to do – I don’t want it to take to much gametime. Would It be a better deal to just follow their initiative. Let them buy their wagon, horse etc. Let them hire 3 guards and a merchant – and then make the numbers easy, saying something like they can sell their loot for 60-75% instead of the normal 50%? And let them account for payments monthly?

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, hirelings as shop workers are pretty standard.

A traveling peddaler's wagon isn't a bad idea in and of itself. It certainly works, story wise.

I notice that pretty much everything they deal in is upper end, price wise. The average commoner doesn't wear armor or use any weapon more dangerous than a staff or dagger, and they certainly don't trade in gems.

In any case, let's presume that all three are at least "Journeyman" grade. (To be a Master of a trade, you need to be able to show a +10 to the skill so you can get Masterwork on a take-10. ) Add in a requirement of at least one rank in Profession, to be a certified member of the Guild.

Now run it as a plot device. Fees will vary from town to town, as will road taxes, and may be "negotiable" based on special services performed or favors owed.

Considering the Crafting rules, they won't be making much money through the trade. It calls for full time work to actually make a living. They'll largely be remarketing loot from the field.

And ultimately, because of the nature of what they sell, their market will be limited.

But think of the story potential. If they cross borders, as I expect they will, they'll be "International Arms Merchants". I'd allow it just on that basis alone.

In fact, do you mind if I steal this idea for an NPC group? We already have the name: "Bloodbath and Beyond" This will give them substance.

 

[Sekhmet]

Assume commission is anywhere from 10-20% of total sale.
Taxes will range (depending on the government) from 10-30%. If you're in the Forgotten Realms, both Amn and Calimshan have extraordinary tax rates (40% and upwards, depending on the season).
Licensing is usually a once per year fee that is standard for the type of goods you will be selling. For mundane weapons and armor, take 100g. For wondrous items, take 500g. For Magical weapons/armor, take 1,000g. For precious metals and gems, take 250g.

Every country/nation they sell in, they'll need proper licensing.

Likewise, without a high Appraisal, bluff, and diplomacy score, they're unlikely to get 100% value out of any item.

After all fees, every week roll 2d20+1d10, make it a percentage and call it good.
Players will get enough money to be worth the effort (almost no effort, honestly), and they won't "get rich quick".


As for your previous concern; "would they make 100% profit if they made their own shop and did it themselves?"
The short answer is "No."
Aside from taxes and fees associated with running a business, you have to consider the cost of not being adventuring or making new goods. Without adventure, new goods can't be found. Without crafting, new goods can't be made.
Being a merchant is a full time career, not one that can be set aside for an adventure and picked back up later on. It requires a reputation, a solid location, and skills that must be honed over years.

It is likely that any business a player tries to start on his or her own will fail within the first year, just like in real life.

 

[Lilloh]

Please do feel free to steal away any of this
I agree story wise, it is a cool thing, also for the players.
As a plot device it will be good, because there will always be something for each player to do during downtime. Master of a trade +10 is just arround the corner for the group. The wizard is already there. The rankrequirement in Profession is a good idea. That wizard has a maxed out appraise skill as well.
I think you're right about it not beeing primarily crafting, as much as remarketing loot from the field, thus their market being limited.

But my fear is this:
If I allow this wagon, then they will begin looting those 10 orc falchions, and the wine barrels, and they will wait the weeks until they can sell them all at 100% to a town militia, or a noblehouse of something like that. Likewise they will not sell those cut gems until when in a large city where they can sell them to some rich lord whose daughter adors them. It will take a lot of effort and game time. And if I even ONCE allow those falchions to go to the militia for 100% price, then they will try it with every item they get their hands on.

So is it possible that simpler rules exist/ can be made? What do you think about the idea of them being able to sell their loot for 60-75% instead of the normal 50%? And let them account for payments monthly, and occasionally pay tax, fees and licenses?

The way I see it, being a limited market for them, with all the expenses. It will end up being a bad business deal compared to selling loot at 50% normal rules. Players dont like to be punished for coming up with creative ideas flavourising the game, and I dont want to punish them for that either. The way I see it it could be worth the trouble and the time, if all-in-all (prises, taxes, fees, wages, payments, hirelings accounted for) would give the players a suplus of 5-10% compared to normal rules.
Can anyone give me that?

 

[Lilloh]

I didnt see your post Sekmet before my last post.

Your description of why they cant sell at 100% makes perfectly good sense, thanks! It will be my inarguable standing argument

We play in the Forgotten Realm, Cormyr.
Could I just asume that base price is 50%, then give som minus percentage depending on the government and tax (from 10-30%).
Then they could plus a percentage equal to +1d10 (luck, randomness, circumstance), and +5 percent for every Appraisal, Bluff and diplomacy check, that beats a certain DC depending on the city (DC 10 for hamlet, DC 15 for town, DC 20 for city, DC 25 for Metropol)

Would that work? But that still doesn't cover proper licensing, taxes and fees associated with running a business. Or does it? Or how could I account for that?

 

[Sekhmet]

I'll address your most recent concerns once I re-examine Cormyr. I'll try to be quick, but if I do not respond in a half hour or less, assume that the holiday frivolities have overtaken me, and that I'll get to your question in the morning.

My (un)educated guess would be that your formula will work just fine in Cormyr. You can even say that the "base price of 50%" takes into consideration every fee (aside from regional tax rate) incurred by your player's business.

The net gain is still going to be a good enough investment for an adventuring party to want to undertake.

Also, regarding the "I loot every orc's falchion and wine and give it to my wagon...", you run into the same issue that player's have all the time: weight and size limitations.
A small wagon that can be pulled by one light pack horse can carry a lot, but not if they want to carry every dagger and leather armor they run across.

 

[Greenfield]

I remember reading once that a "master worked" wagon had twice the carrying capacity of a regular one. But do remember that anvils and forges are heavy things to haul around.

And while they'll try to use Bags of Holding to bypass eight and space limits, also remember what happens when they try to stuff a dozen falchion into a Bag of Holding. Pointy objects into magic bags is a no-no.