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Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8790594" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>You're the one giving an absolute here! You're the one who said, and I quote, "Imbalance has no* negative consequences."</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're going to have to actually <em>demonstrate</em> that positive impact--because I'm not seeing it. Quite the opposite, actually.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that the game does deter those things <em>by giving them less success</em>. That's...literally how any game ever deters anything. Make it less successful. It's part of why 3rd edition is so deeply, fundamentally broken. (Edit: To be specific, 3rd edition very clearly <em>wanted</em> to make certain things be the dominant strategy, but the actual rules provide enormous perverse incentives to do exactly the opposite of what the designers intended. 3e is broken specifically because it rewards things the designers wanted players to avoid and punishes--reduces the success of--things the designers wanted players to pursue.)</p><p></p><p>And, as I've said many times now, "you can have fun with it" is <em>the worst possible standard for judging a game's design</em>. If you <em>couldn't</em> have fun with it, if it were literally physically impossible for anyone to derive joy from the experience, it would be a powerful weapon of psychological warfare, not a <em>game</em>.</p><p></p><p>It DOES have an impact. Sometimes that impact is hard to see, or misidentified as arising from some other issue. I would know--that's how the first (almost) <em>decade</em> of my D&D experience ran. You cite that some people have fun despite this state of affairs; I cite that some people really do feel punished because of it, and that the fun the previous group has would be completely unaffected by changing it. (Unless, of course, they're bad-faith players who <em>desire</em> to feel more powerful than, and have advantage over, their peers. But I think, or perhaps I <em>hope</em>, we can agree that such bad-faith players are not who the game should be designed for?)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8790594, member: 6790260"] You're the one giving an absolute here! You're the one who said, and I quote, "Imbalance has no* negative consequences." You're going to have to actually [I]demonstrate[/I] that positive impact--because I'm not seeing it. Quite the opposite, actually. Except that the game does deter those things [I]by giving them less success[/I]. That's...literally how any game ever deters anything. Make it less successful. It's part of why 3rd edition is so deeply, fundamentally broken. (Edit: To be specific, 3rd edition very clearly [I]wanted[/I] to make certain things be the dominant strategy, but the actual rules provide enormous perverse incentives to do exactly the opposite of what the designers intended. 3e is broken specifically because it rewards things the designers wanted players to avoid and punishes--reduces the success of--things the designers wanted players to pursue.) And, as I've said many times now, "you can have fun with it" is [I]the worst possible standard for judging a game's design[/I]. If you [I]couldn't[/I] have fun with it, if it were literally physically impossible for anyone to derive joy from the experience, it would be a powerful weapon of psychological warfare, not a [I]game[/I]. It DOES have an impact. Sometimes that impact is hard to see, or misidentified as arising from some other issue. I would know--that's how the first (almost) [I]decade[/I] of my D&D experience ran. You cite that some people have fun despite this state of affairs; I cite that some people really do feel punished because of it, and that the fun the previous group has would be completely unaffected by changing it. (Unless, of course, they're bad-faith players who [I]desire[/I] to feel more powerful than, and have advantage over, their peers. But I think, or perhaps I [I]hope[/I], we can agree that such bad-faith players are not who the game should be designed for?) [/QUOTE]
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