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D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

HammerMan

Legend
So on tic tok we have had quite a long discussion over many creators (some old but a lot young new to 5e) about balance between classes and this was the end of a thread. Crab Dominion on TikTok
Basically he explains that Gandalf and Merlin are NOT D&D characters but mage the ascension characters. They are not balanced with Aragon or Arthur becuse they are not playing the same game.

But Zatana (or doctor fate or Spector or dr strange over at the other company) ARE balanced with Batman. Batman is supernatural even as “just a guy”.
 

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When those characters were created, they weren't designed to be balanced for a game.

And today lots of characters from comics are "nerfed" when they are adapted into a videogame, and more when this is a PvP with optional characters.

And Gandalf and Merlin hadn't to worry about "Paradox". They are "awakened" from Mage: the Ascension (my favorite one from World of Darkness).
 

When those characters were created, they weren't designed to be balanced for a game.

And today lots of characters from comics are "nerfed" when they are adapted into a videogame, and more when this is a PvP with optional characters.

And Gandalf and Merlin hadn't to worry about "Paradox". They are "awakened" from Mage: the Ascension (my favorite one from World of Darkness).

I think Wonder Woman and Hercules and are better comparsion to D&D fighters then say Batman or King Arthur at high levels.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Others have noted the problem of comparing scripted media (like comics, cartoons, myths-and-legends, etc.) with non-scripted games that involve cooperative efforts.

However, I offer in rebuttal: The game was designed, in part, to try to capture these characters while claiming to be cooperative.

That's one of the critical issues at hand. Because people are absolutely right, Gandalf isn't meant to be "balanced" against Sam. They serve completely different functions in the narrative, and Gandalf is simultaneously vastly more powerful and vastly more hobbled than I suspect Sam could ever conceive. Likewise for Merlin and Arthur.

The Batman/Superman comparison is a lot more useful though, and is part of why it gets brought up so much. Batman IS, to a meaningful degree, meant to be one of Superman's peers. That's an intentional part of the storytelling. Further, Batman has several "powers" that Superman doesn't. Political and business connections, fear factor (few villains fear Superman, despite knowing his vast strength), vast fortunes that can be funneled to "black projects" without people noticing (seriously, the Watchtower was a hidden line-item in Wayne Enterprises' aerospace division budget!), and (depending on canon) greater intelligence and superior observational skills (sure, Superman has x-ray vision, but he overlooks stuff Batman wouldn't.) It's also at least implied that Batman is more resistant to mind-control and possibly magic, whereas magic is one of Superman's only weaknesses. And, narratively, they fill very similar roles in the story, rather than being radically different like Merlin and Arthur or Sam and Gandalf.

There is a sense in which the authors intend for us to see Batman and Superman as "equals" to some degree. For example, it's pretty standard Justice League writing to have the two of them mutually respect one another for literally diametrically opposite reasons. Batman looks at Superman and thinks: "He has practically godlike power, and lost everything, his planet, his people. If he wanted, he could rule the world, and we could hardly stop him. Instead, he chooses to be upstanding, to never take the easy way out, to always show compassion. And he lives his daily life as a mild-mannered reporter." Superman looks at Batman and thinks: "He lost everything as a child, watched his parents die at eight years old. I had a family, parents who loved me. He had a tragedy. And instead of becoming a debauched layabout squandering his vast fortune, he chose to be the power that helps the powerless. To fight the things that crawl out of the darkness, but never stoop to their level."

So....yeah, I really do think there actually IS some teeth to the Superman/Batman comparison, particularly when we then move from scripted media to unscripted gaming that claims to be cooperative. The problem is, the designers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have Gandalf-and-Aragorn (or even Gandalf-and-Frodo), while at the same time saying or at least implying that everyone's on equal footing.
 

In a movie or novel perspective, the character importance is based on how long the spot light is on him. The power level or the importance of the action, speech, thinking don’t matter. A commoner and a god can share the main role equally.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Yeah as people have said, these characters weren’t created for a game. The word ‘balance’ has no meaning in this context.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Basically he explains that Gandalf and Merlin are NOT D&D characters but mage the ascension characters. They are not balanced with Aragon or Arthur becuse they are not playing the same game.

I would argue that they aren't balanced together because they are are not playing a game at all.

Writers of fiction have no need for what we consider to be "balance" in their characters. At all. It is not a requirement of the medium they work in.
 

In a DnD session, for an external viewer that don’t know much about the game,
The most important character would be the one that speak most, is often spoken to,
to whom other players ask advice or ask to have the final word on dilemma.
The external viewer will also consider cheer up, and rewards shown between players.
 

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