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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8792224" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Then we are talking about different stories, which explains why the events are not in agreement. I can't comment on a version I haven't seen. Which is not actually his power. There ARE reality warpers in DC, Batman is explicitly not one of them. However, narrative contrivance pulls the exact same thing. The difference is that because it is narrative contrivance and not an actual ability, you can just uncontrive the story without changing the characters. And New God Technology is not a standard load out for Batman. It is something special, given to him only when he needs it to combat things at a higher scale than him. But what is in that cave? Sure, he has kryptonite. But does he have Hell Spores? The very thing that was key to "defeating" Darkseid by threatening to destroy the planet? No. Darkseid had those. And most of the things used during Tower of Babel are actually fairly mundane items or tools from his stories. Such as Scarecrow's fear toxin. And you are hitting directly onto the head of the problem. Batman is always given the specialized tools he needs to win. Meanwhile, Superman just wins. Translating that to a TTRPG doesn't work, because one build is effective, and the other needs constant GM intervention to APPEAR effective, while in reality it wouldn't work without the intervention of the GMNo. The fighter should be designed to stand up without the intervention of the DM to contrive the plot. I shouldn't need to give my Fighter a magical tool that allows them to be effective. They should be effective in the story with only their baseline abilities. So Batman is therefore a normal peak human... able to survive the simultaneous explosion of 3,000 nukes directly to his face? Cause that is how hard Superman punches. Tell me, if I took something multiple times weaker, say, a grenade, and shoved it into a normal persons face, would they just walk it off? Look, I know you can say "But here! Look here! He did it!" but that doesn't mean it makes any sense. Batman's powerset does not include invulnerability, so he CAN'T take those kinds of blows. Any story where he does is ignoring the canon in favor of making a more interesting story. I'm sorry that the comics are inconsistent and all that, but if we just assume Batman is actually superman levels strong, fast and tough... then why does he pretend not to be? How did Bane break his back? Ect ect ect. Because he is the main character, and the plot isn't about killing him. That doesn't mean he has a powerset that lends itself to not killing him, that means that the writer is constantly refusing to kill him. I can make an immortal DnD character too, if when they would drop to 0 hp the DM just decides they got to 1 instead. Every. Single. Time.  But that wouldn't be a very fun thing to happen in a game. And why did they go down in that fight, but were not taken down in the next fight? Did they train and get stronger? Did they find a magical mcguffin that made them able to defeat the enemy? Or did they just.. win that time? You keep taking tropes and narrative conventions and saying "SEE! This is his power level". I could do the same thing. Sherlock Holmes could fight Darkseid and win, because he is smart enough to solve any mystery and nothing ever kills him. How do I know? Because he solved mysteries and nothing in his stories ever killed him! Or ect ect ect. Look, if you want to pretend Batman is an immortal god-warrior, then knock yourself out. But it kind of misses the entire point of the analogy. Nope. HP is not "plot armor" because plot armor happens when there is no other explanation. HP is a factor in the game, and the barbarian has enough to survive getting hit with a giant's axe. Turns out, living in a high fantasy world where everything your breath and eat is filled with background magic, you may not be just a normal human. I understand you may ARGUE it is plot armor, but since the DM does not have to interfere with the function of the game to make it apply, then I would say it doesn't fit the same trope. I can argue that he can't, mostly by saying that it makes no sense. This isn't just a matter of 0 prep and 0 magic items, this is a matter of power levels, which isn't a thing the DnD world deals with. In DnD there is no amount of "pure strength" that makes you immune to people with less strength. Someone with a strength 30 still takes damage if punched by someone with strength 10. The Equivalent would be if Batman were a Rogue/Fighter/Monk who is punching someone who is immune to non-magical damage. Wonder Woman is effectively immune to non-magical damage, she tanks missile explosions. Now, you are probably about to argue that Batman is a 6th level monk and can use Ki.... except he can't. Ki usage is an explicitly listed power for heroes like Iron Fist. It is something Batman does not have. So, he doesn't have magical fists of fury, yet he is breaking through non-magic immunity, and the only reason that can make sense is if he is being given plot power to just ignore the abilities and powers of wonder woman because it "makes a better story" The Ultimate Nullifer may have been retconned to use will, but that was not the original. The original was... it had a trigger. Pull the trigger and boom. That was it. And did the entire team go and get the item? Noooope. Just Human Torch. And again, you are missing the point. The point isn't that it is or isn't a good story. The point is that the entire resolution of the plot is a Deus Ex Machina. It is the GM coming up with an enemy, and letting the party fail to stop it multiple times, then realizing they are about to end their game world, interfering to give them a solution that works and drives off the threat. And did they kill him with their own power, or with a McGuffin that was designed for the sole purpose of killing Galactus? Also, hey, how much is it your parties power to say "why don't you and him fight" as you have to gods fight while you run away? Again, great story, but as a game mechanic this doesn't show that you can stand toe to toe with the gods, it shows you can use gods to fight gods while you flee so you don't get killed BY ACCIDENT. And if the item was locked behind an adventure they went on, then it would be a cool adventure, But it still wouldn't be "we can beat Orcus" it is "We can get the item that can beat Orcus" Same end result, but VERY different story.</blockquote>

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