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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8793040" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Okay, so how do you propose we translate this to a game like 5e? This is schrodinger's statblock. It would be like having a rogue, and in one adventure he has no magic, then in the next adventure he puts on a ring and has at-will 9th level spells, and he still has the ring in the next adventure, but chooses not to use it? Tell me, how many Players would be willing to go into a difficult fight and NOT use every tool at their disposal? Yes, the analogy between a comic book character and an RPG character isn't perfect. Analogies never are, but at this point you are basically saying that the analogy shows that the current fighter is balanced against the current magic-user because the DM can just fiat magical powers for the fighter whenever they feel like, whether or not it makes any sense. Right, but here's the problem, you can't have a class whose options constantly shift via fiat. A player needs to know what their abilities are. They need to know they have X hp and that means that they can survive X damage, If X = whatever I feel like today, then they can't accurately judge threats and play the game. It is far more effective to settle down into a single vision of what the class is capable of, rather than saying "the DM will Fiat what the class needs to be the hero of the story" which is the problem I'm trying to point out. Batman isn't used as an analogy for these classes because the writers alter his abilities constantly and break the internal logic of the story to make him the hero, he is used as an example because he has no powers. If this is really too much of a problem for you to talk about Batman in a single consistent context, then I'll use Jimmy Olsen, or The Question, or someone else. The point is to demonstrate the issue and try and find solutions, not to argue whether or not the writers decided Batman can never die no matter what. Except the minions ARE a threat to you. That's the problem. Batman has comics today where a thug with a gun is treated as a serious threat, while also having the ability to dodge light-speed attacks and survive multi-ton attacks. This is like saying that the current DnD level 20 fighter is threatened by a commoner with a stick, and by Orcus IN EQUAL MEASURE. Which doesn't work. So, when Superman goes to sleep I can stab him with an iron dagger and kill him? Because DC works on the logic that strong-will and being aware of the attack is all that matters? Wait... no. Specifically I can't, because in DC things like invulnerability work even if you are unaware of the attack. And the strong-willed Commisioner Gordon can totally take super powered blows right? Um... no, he can't. He is often taken out by mundane level attacks. I'm not ignoring the source material, I'm calling out the source material for being inconsistent and not presenting a coherent setting. Again, the analogy isn't meant to be 1 to 1, it isn't meant to be that these things are perfectly representative of every factor of the DC comics line. They are meant to be quick touchstones, because not everyone is aware of the same media. Why not? Why does Superman's player not get to expeirence levels 1 - 20, but Batman's does? How is that fair to them? And you are missing the point. Let us say that the Fire Fighters ARE PCs, how do they contribute in the fight against Darkseid? What can they do? Cool, so they can fight through the pain and still contribute. Great hero material. But they are still injured, because they no longer have 114 hp, they have 7. That matters, even if we don't give them a -10 to every roll alongside disadvantage. Right, you are just refusing to engage in the premise. My fighter can now cast like an 18th level archmage. He is the hero after all, and he has all the fighter abilities and no caster levels. In fact, he can't even use magic. But he does, because he is the hero and he does it anyways. Does this sound like how a coherent system works? I don't care that they've shown batman having super strength and super durability and super speed. But, since Batman has super powers, he is not a good analogy  anymore. So, you are a fire fighter in gotham now. How do you contribute to the Justice League's fight?</blockquote>

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