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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8793965" data-attributes="member: 6801228">But you can't talk about what Batman can do, unless you talk about what Batman can do. And so we look to the largest collection of what he does.... his solo stories. But I'm getting sick of talking about Batman with you, because it is honestly detracting from the point far more than it is helping.See, this I can agree with. Things like teleporting, summoning, creating life, navigating the globe, becoming partially immune, 24 hour boost to defenses. These are things casters can do by this point. So we should try and make sure there is some level of parity. HOWEVER, as per my original point, it needs to be something that applies to the adventure. The ability to summon one hundred thousand gold pieces at-will is broken in some games, and utterly useless in a game where there is no economy. So, we need to make sure whatever abilities we give them, actually apply to the adventuring day.What do you mean "keep it across all characters"? Are you trying to say that all characters should be balanced? I agree with that. Are you trying to say that every character you make has this ring? That makes no sense. But neither of those apply to the point. the point was, in Batman comics, he has this incredibly powerful item... that he rarely if ever uses. He could be incredibly more efficient and able to handle threats and he just chooses not to, for no reason. A PC will never do that. If they are in a dangerous situation, they are going to pull out their incredibly powerful item that triples or more their effectiveness and has no downside, because of course they are. Just like they are going to be using their +1 Longsword instead of their mundane club. It is just many times more effective.At that point, the comparison to Batman would be editorial rewriting him to be a different character. That is a fundamentally different argument than a writer for a single issue changing his abilities for that single issue.See, you have fundamentally misunderstood the entire premise of the analogy. The point isn't to say "Isn't it wonderful that Batman can be killed by a knife-wielding thug while Zatana can alter reality and take on Mongal." The point is to say that Batman, logically not with writers altering reality to give him superpowers, can be threatened by a knife wielding thug. Meanwhile, the other members of the JLA are NEVER threatened by that level of challenge. There is no story where someone like Zatana or Superman is capable of being threatened by that thug. They NEED challenges like Mongal, because nothing else can stand up to them. The goal is to CHANGE the situation, and the analogy is meant to help provide context for people who ask "why should the guy at the gym be able alter reality?" It isn't meant to be a 1 to 1 about how exactly Batman is written. That's not the point. And if we want to rewrite the character, that's different than how we portray him in a specific adventure.FIGHTERS AREN'T THE LEVEL OF GODS THAT SPELLCASTERS ARE! WE ARE USING THE ANALOGY TO SHOW THE PROBLEM!Am I saying it loud enough? Can you read this? I'm NOT saying I WANT this to be the case. I'm saying it IS the case AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. It is additionally a problem that the same character, at the same time, is both 17th level and 5th level, depending on what is going on around them. This isn't how DnD works, you notice, you don't change levels as you move to different adventures. You'll notice that if you are level 15 in the tomb of horrors, then next session you are still level 15 when you are in the Duke's Ball and doing a diplo mission. If the challenges for mundane people are generally CR 4 thru 7, and the challenges for spellcasters are CR 15 or higher, that is a problem. Something worth address. Sort of like how the Nature cleric has the 17th level ability to charm beasts, what is the common refrain for that? "We never face Beasts at this level". You would need to make sure the powers are useful for the level. That the challenges you create apply to the powers they have. Which was my original point, before you started trying to defend Batman's honor.Okay, but for the analogy between the CURRENT fighter and a spellcaster, since Batman now has every super power he ever needs to constantly succeed, Gordon ISN'T an NPC, because I need SOMEONE without super powers to use in the analogy to demonstrate the problem. Also, Gordon isn't an NPC, he is just as important to the stories in Gotham as Batman or Robin or Barbara.No you aren't. You have lost hp and can be healed with bandages. Definitionally, that means you are not perfectly fine.I agree they should. But they don't. The analogy was to help highlight that they don't. But you insist that Batman has super strength, super speed, super durablity, and a ring of "they will be done" all the time and is totally equal to every other member of the party. However, I'll note, yet again, the current fighter ISN'T equal and the insistence on keeping to the theme is part of the problem. Because the theme of fighters is that they have no special abilities, no magic. Just like Batman has no super powers. But, notably... Batman suddenly develops super speed, super strength, and super durability spontaneously and without explanation when he needs to participate alongside people with those levels of abilities. This is the problem with sticking to the theme, is some people will continue to say that they CANNOT go beyond baseline human, because that breaks the theme. And yet, as I've been trying to point out to you, when Batman suddenly has super speed because he needs to compete with people with super speed, it breaks the core concept of the character. And it kind of proves that you really cannot write a coherent story with a god and a mortal man, and have them be equal in power.Right. How? How does someone with no special abilities, no special tech, a normal human being becomg of equal power to Gods who can break space, time, and physics casually? Without giving them any special abilities, it seems pretty impossible to me. But for the game to be fun for everyone, it needs to be done.</blockquote>

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