D&D 4E Merric's thoughts on 4e

[SteveC]

Didn't Monte Cook work at Role Master before he became part of the 3rd Edition team?
How similar are the Role Master and the 3rd Edition D&D combat and spell systems?

From what I've seen, they're becoming similar in 4th Edition, but by no means identical.

Spells in Rolemaster have levels ranging from 1 to 50, and the level of the spell represents the basic level of a caster that is expected to be able to cast it without extreme effort. Thus, a 5th level spell can be cast by a 5th level caster without too much trouble.

Spells are also divided into spell lists, which are groupings of similar spells. You have "Fire Law" or "Ice Law" which are all lists of related spells by theme. This is one area where I expect 4th Edition to be different, although the system is basically "path magic" or clerical domain spells.

Finally, and most interesting to me, is that classes in Rolemaster are divided into one of four groupings: Essence (Arcane Magic), Channeling (Divine Magic), Mentalism (Psionics) and Arms (Mundane characters). I think it's interesting that 4th Edition has three "power sources" in the first book, which correspond to three of the four groupings from Rolemaster. When the Psionics handbook comes out, we'll have all four of them.

What's also interesting to me is that there are a number of hybrid groups, which are classes that are made up of two different sources, so you have Paladins who are Channeling-Arms and so forth. I think we'll see something very like this in 4th Edition. There is also "Arcane" magic, which is a combination of all the other power sources. I expect to see this as well.

Those are just some thoughts...

--Steve

 

[MerricB]

Merric,

Good OP. It concerns me that you are becoming cynical....That is far more serious than my own cynicism!

Have any new developments changed your thinking re: 4e?

RC

Honestly, I think some of the previews have improved (love the Beholder interview), but there's still not enough information for me to form a good opinion on 4e. Lots of things I love about what they're doing, but the uncertainty is still there.

Cheers!

 

[broghammerj]

Spells in Rolemaster have levels ranging from 1 to 50, and the level of the spell represents the basic level of a caster that is expected to be able to cast it without extreme effort. Thus, a 5th level spell can be cast by a 5th level caster without too much trouble.

That is sheer genius! I don't know why I would have never thought of that as a design upgrade but it certainly makes more sense than a 5th level wizard who can only cast 3rd level spells. Perhaps they will do something like this for 4E since they have the 4E 30 levels = 3E 20 levels.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

There's more than passing similarity between cleric Domains and the Rolemaster Spell Law system.

Cleric domains have been around since 2E (1989).

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Spell Law, the supplement which became the Rolemaster spell system, came out in 81 or 82, I think. Certainly no later.

 

[pweent]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I was surprised that no one corrected Ty on his premise:

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

An important part of the quote that Ty edited out:

I only ran AD&D once.

I did play AD&D quite a bit while I was in high school, in a campaign with college friends.

Just to get a bit of accuracy with regards to Ty's complaint. (To which I chime in with all the others - no, not in the least. In no small part because I also left 1e for other systems, skipped 2e entirely, and only came back with 3e.)

And, just to get quibbly:

To put it bluntly, one of the lead designers of 4th Edition wrote off AD&D and 2nd Edition as inferior to Runequest or Talisman.

Runequest or Champions, actually. Talisman's a board game, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on the D&D team who'd say Talisman was superior to AD&D 1e or 2e.

 

[buzz]

Runequest or Champions, actually. Talisman's a board game, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on the D&D team who'd say Talisman was superior to AD&D 1e or 2e.

I also don't think you can really fault anyone for preferring RQ or Champs to 2e. After OD&D and 1e, they're probably the two most influential RPGs the hobby has ever seen.

And, yeah, I skipped 2e as well. Rolemaster, CoC, and Champions were more my cup o' tea back then.

 

[pweent]

I also don't think you can really fault anyone for preferring RQ or Champs to 2e.

Sure I can! I had friends try to get me into Champions on several occasions; I invariably ended up running out of the room screaming and/or crying halfway through the session. (Manly tears, of course. Tears of rage.) No, Champions was for stinky powergaming losers!

And, yeah, I skipped 2e as well. Rolemaster, CoC, and Champions were more my cup o' tea back then.

Er. Can I amend my earlier statement? Suave, debonair, powergaming, um... Just complete it however you like.

 

[pemerton]

the podcasts from Mearls specifically said they want to reduce the number of options and choices you have to make at 24th level so that 24th level is still as easy to play as lower levels.

I get the sense that this is referring to the action resolution mechanics, rather than the character build mechanics. Everything that I have heard about the latter suggests that they will be as complex, or more so, than 3E, but less arithmetically fiddly (eg fewer bonus types, no skill points, etc).[/QUOTE]

How similar are the Role Master and the 3rd Edition D&D combat and spell systems?

3E has basically nothing in common with RM as far as action resolution is concerned (either in combat or spell casting). Nor is there any overlap between the character build rules for combat or spell use.

The only real points of resemblance between RM and 3E are these:

*In character build, both aspire to a "total" picture of the character, in which the character sheet tells you everything there is to know about what that character can do. Both use a skill-point system as part of this, though it plays a bigger role in RM than in D&D.

*In action resolution, both are roll dice (d100 in RM rather than d20), add bonus, achieve target number. Unlike D&D, RM pays much more attention to degree of success.​

I get the impression that 4e will keep the second of these features, but ditch the first (eg there will be no mechanical representation of crafts or professions).

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Spell Law, the supplement which became the Rolemaster spell system, came out in 81 or 82, I think. Certainly no later.

I'm sure that's true, but it's also not relevant. Wulf was hypothesising that Monte had based cleric domains on Spell Law, since Monte once worked on Rolemaster. However, since Monte didn't start working for TSR until 1994 (well after 2E, including cleric domains, was released in 1989), he couldn't have influenced the addition of cleric domains to D&D.