Message vs. Magic Missile

[Etan Moonstar]

In order to avoid the further hijacking of the thread in which this debate originated, I am going to create a new thread (in the rules forum, even) , paste the previous posts below, and link to the old thread. So without further ado, what has gone before.....

Hypersmurf posted:

According to the PHB description of Mirror Image, a successful attack roll destroys a figment. Magic Missile has no attack roll, so a PHB Mirror Image cannot be destroyed by a Magic Missile.

The FAQ decided to change the spell, for some reason, and states that a targetted spell can also destroy a figment. It goes on to clarify that a targetted spell is any spell with a 'Target' or 'Targets' entry in the stat block.

Message can hit one target per caster level - thus completely destroying a Maxed Mirror Image at CL8, while Magic Missile caps at 5 targets at CL9.

Message is thus one of the best anti-Mirror-Image spells around.

It's better cast by a wizard than from a wand, because the cost of the wand scales with caster level... but it's not the sort of spell you want to memorise "just in case", usually.

To which Etan Moonstar replied:

The message trick is only going to work with a DM who doesn't know his rules too well. Mirror images, according to the SRD, disappear when struck (i.e. hit by a targetted source of damage, either spell or weapon--the SRD says nothing about an attack roll being required). The FAQ only points out that area effect spells (such as fireball) do not count as striking images. As message spells do not -strike- their targets, they do not therefore destroy mirror images.

But if your DM lets you get away with it and doesn't read these boards, more power to ya.

To which Hypersmurf replied:

The SRD does not contain the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. The SRD contains rules "compatible with the d20 System version of Dungeons & Dragons and various other roleplaying games from Wizards of the Coast."

The rules of D&D are found in the PHB, DMG, and MM.

And according to the entry for Mirror Image in the PHB, "Any successful attack roll against a figment destroys it."

To which Etan Moonstar replied:

In this instance, the SRD text differs from the PHB text only in the use of third-person ("the caster") vs. second-person ("you") and a specific example of how mirror images react to area effect spells. It's quicker for me to refer to the SRD when posting on my computer, but I went and compared with the PHB this time to make sure.

And the first paragraph in both sources states that: "The figments stay near you and disappear when struck."

The spell description later clarifies that any successful attack roll against a figment destroys it. This statement does not, however, exclude the possibility that a non-rolled targetted attack will also destroy the image (that would require the statement: "Only a successful attack roll against a figment destroys it").

Since a message spell does not strike its target--it only makes the target able to hear your whispered message--it does not destroy mirror images.

Points for creativity, Hypersmurf, but the rules on mirror image seem quite clear to this rules-lawyer of a DM, at least.

To which Hypersmurf replied:

Except that most targetted spells - including Magic Missiles - target creatures, and a figment is not a creature.

Thus, you should not be able to strike a figment with a Magic Missile.

However, with a targetted spell, the caster is aware of its success or failure - if it has a saving throw, he knows if that target successfully saved, for example. He does not know this when he casts an area spell.

The FAQ entry does not suggest a targetted spell is required to "strike" a figment to destroy it. If you cast, for example, Hold Person, the figment neither saves, nor fails, nor resists the spell - and since the caster is aware of the effect of a targetted spell, he now has evidence that that figment is not real, and it disappears as per the FAQ text. The figment is not struck, but it is targetted.

In the case of a Message spell, you are simply gathering that evidence on one figment/creature per level.

Which brings us to this thread. And now...the debate continues!

 

[Etan Moonstar]

For purposes of targetting, the figment is considered to be a creature, because it appears to be that creature to the spellcaster. Thus magic missile can target a figment, and when it strikes the figment, the figment disappears (having been struck by a targetted source of damage). The best way of getting rid of images, in fact, is to target a separate image with each missile (magic missile creates up to 5 missiles, independently targetable).

Let's compare the effects of other spells.

As per the PHB description, area effect spells do not destroy figments--the figments instead appear to be affected by the spell. Thus untargetted sources of damage do not destroy images; the image merely appears to be damaged.

This covers two situations--targetted sources of damage, and untargetted sources of damage. This brings us to the type of spell we are debating about--targetted spells which are not a source of damage.

Let us refer to our primary sources on mirror image to look for an answer to this question.

By reading the FAQ, we see that the question being answered is about area effect spells (not about targetted spells of any type). The answer to the question reaffirms that untargetted (area of effect) spells do not destroy images, and it then informs you how you can tell if a spell is area of effect or not (if it has a target or requires an attack roll to hit, it is not area of effect and CAN therefore destroy an image). Granted, the way the answer is worded ("targetted spells do [destroy figments]") is not as clear as I would have written, but this is why we must look at the context in which this statement is made--answering a question about area of effect spells. The obvious interpretation is that no area of effect spell can destroy a figment, but a qualified (i.e. damage-dealing) targetted spell does destroy a figment. The FAQ, taken in context, says nothing about non-damaging targetted spells destroying figments.

So let us turn to the PHB and see if therein we can learn what effect non-damaging targetted spells have on figments.

The PHB, as it turns out, says nothing about non-damaging spells used on mirror images. It does state two things which can be used to create a logical and balanced extrapolation, however: 1. images disappear when struck (this is the only thing listed as causing them to disappear), and 2. images affected by non-targetted (area of effect) spells appear to be affected by the spell.

Here it may be useful to clarify what "strike" means in the PHB. A search of the SRD (for convenience, as it is quicker to search for a term in a document than to carefully read the entire PHB) for the words "strike" and "struck" reveals that EVERY time strike/struck is used, it's context gives it the meaning "to hit for damage"--unarmed strike, strike an object, strike a weapon, falling block trap striking multiple characters, etc.

It becomes fairly clear, then, that only striking (i.e. dealing targetted damage to) an image makes it disappear. So what happens to an image affected by hold person or message? Extrapolating from what the image does when hit by an area of effect spell (such as fireball), the image appears to be affected by the spell. So the image is held, appears to hear your whispered image, etc., but continues to exist until struck (receiving targetted damage).

 

[Etan Moonstar]

[Oops, deleted double post]

 

[Etan Moonstar]

I do see one more point you made, Hypersmurf, about the caster knowing if the target made or failed their save. Given this information, I would rule that the caster would become aware that an image targetted by a non-damaging spell requiring a saving throw (such as hold person) was in fact an image, and that the image could then disappear at that point. Alternately it could remain, appearing to be affected by the spell, and only the caster--not his sword-swinging friends--would know it was an image. Either of these two options make sense, and I'd probably choose the former to simplify my job as a DM.

However, an image targetted by a non-damaging spell NOT requiring a saving throw (such as message) would not provide the caster with any information about failed saving throws, and would therefore still be around. So still no image-destroying message spells (unless the real target was stupid enough to actually whisper a reply back, something which the images would be unable to do).

 

[Hypersmurf]

For purposes of targetting, the figment is considered to be a creature, because it appears to be that creature to the spellcaster.

Except that it is not a creature.

The caster's belief is irrelevant.

A dog is of type Animal. A human polymorphed into a dog is of type Humanoid (human).

A Charm Person spell can target "one person" - a humanoid of Medium size or smaller.

The example given of casting a spell at the wrong sort of target is of someone casting Charm Person on a dog. The spell has no effect.

Even if the caster believes the dog to be a polymorphed human, and therefore a valid target, nothing happens when he casts the spell.

By the same logic, even if he believes the figment to be a creature, he cannot target it with a Magic Missile.

... except that the FAQ introduces a new rule - any targetted spell destroys a figment.

However, an image targetted by a non-damaging spell NOT requiring a saving throw (such as message) would not provide the caster with any information about failed saving throws, and would therefore still be around. So still no image-destroying message spells (unless the real target was stupid enough to actually whisper a reply back, something which the images would be unable to do).

What would you say to Calm Emotions, then?

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Well, I guess I'll jump in and say this: to my knowledge, Hypersmurf is the only person who seems to believe that message destroys mirror images. (And I go back-and-forth on whether I think he actually believes that, or is just arguing rhetorically.)

The Sage's analysis of magic missiles versus mirror images may have been somewhat poorly thought out, but I very much doubt that, if asked, he would agree that message destroy mirror images.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(And I go back-and-forth on whether I think he actually believes that, or is just arguing rhetorically.)

I believe the FAQ allows Magic Missile and Message to destroy Mirror Image.

I believe the PHB allows neither... just like me.

-Hyp.

 

[Murrdox]

For purposes of targetting, the figment is considered to be a creature

It might have been the Sage, or it might have been a chat with one of the developers where it was stated that figments count as creatures for the purpose of targeting.

Hypersmurf goes by the standard that if the target for a spell is not valid, the spell fizzles. This is why he thinks Magic Missle fails to destroy images, because if you cast the spell at an image, it is not a valid target, and it fails. The spell never actually goes off.

I am of the belief that I can CAST magic missle at absolutely anything I want to... and if I happen to cast it at an inanimate object, the missles still pop into existance and streak at the target... but nothing at all happens when they strike it. This goes for any spell I cast at an invalid target.

Even with Hypersmurf's interpretation of casting and targeting, I still don't see how he can say Message destroys images, when "striking" the image is clearly defined as a requirement for destroying one of them.

The statement in the FAQ that targeted spells (Magic Missle) can destroy images cannot be taken by itself. It is obviously meant as a qualifier to spells that "strike" the images without attack rolls.

By Hyper's definition, Magic Missle is the ultimate illusion detector... no matter what spell level the illusion is.

 

[Bauglir]

Pshaw - magic missile can only strike 5 targets at once.

You want telekinesis and bag of crossbow bolts

 

[Gwarok]

Seems to me a little common sense would answer this question. Anything that would cause hurt to the illusion, if they were real people, would disperse the illusion. Using the misquoted line about targeted spells to justify Message as a mirror image breaker seems pretty sorry to me.