Meta or Mega Checks

[Water Bob]

Under the 3.5 rules, how do you guys handle mega-checks (or, sometimes called meta-checks, but I think that's an incorrect use of the term...somebody correct me).

The rules, in the 3.5 system, always default to the Tactical, 6-second combat round scale. What do you do when you're running the game on a larger time scale?



For example (I thought about this with my Swim question thread), let's say you've got a river the PCs need to cross. The river is 315 feet across. If you're not in a combat situation, you don't sit there and make (a minimum of) 21 Swim Checks, do you?

I mean, that sounds idiotic outside of an a combat situation.

Do you just say that the PCs cross the river and forget about Swim checks?

Do you use the Take 10 rule? And, what if, using the Take 10 rule, the result is not enough to exceed the DC required to swim the river? (For example, when Taking 10, a character gets up with a 13 Swim check and the DC to cross the rapids of the river is a DC 15?)





OK, another example. The PCs are moving overland from one village to another, a couple of days travel. On the eve of the second day, they reach the base of a huge 200 foot cliff.

You don't make a butt load of climb checks, right? That's crazy. But, wouldn't you want to make a couple of quickie checks to ensure that there were no complications scaling the cliff?

So, how do you handle these sorts of things in your game?

 

[Greenfield]

I'd look at what Take 10 can get them.

If it won't do it then they need to come up with bonuses. In your example, where a Take 10 will only get them 13 out of 15 needed, then they'll need to team up and Aid Another for that 2 point bonus. Or maybe they'll need to pack away the armor to get rid of the Armor Check penalties. Swimming with the "buddy system" really does work, after all.

Same with the Climb checks. There are Climbing kits that can give a bonus. If one person can make the climb on a Take 10, he can drop a rope to the others. The check to climb a knotted rope is a base DC 5. Moving ledge to ledge, section by section, and taking safety precautions, you should be able to make it work, even if you're scaling a 200 foot cliff using only 50 foot ropes.

But the players need to think of that. This is where Role Playing the scene comes in, to get those circumstance bonuses needed, as per our other conversation.

Oh, and another idea: IRL, most people would scout up and down river for a good crossing point, or check along that cliff face for an easier face to climb, or a way around. If you just can't make it up/across here safely, find someplace where the DC is lower.

That old saw about why people climb mountains, "Because it's there!"? That's the same reason a most normal people give for going around them.

 

[Jimlock]

The river is 315 feet across. If you're not in a combat situation, you don't sit there and make (a minimum of) 21 Swim Checks, do you?

Do you use the Take 10 rule? And, what if, using the Take 10 rule, the result is not enough to exceed the DC required to swim the river?

If they can't reach the DC with "take 10" and they still want to try, let them "take 1", drown, and save yourselves some time

 

[the Jester]

For example (I thought about this with my Swim question thread), let's say you've got a river the PCs need to cross. The river is 315 feet across. If you're not in a combat situation, you don't sit there and make (a minimum of) 21 Swim Checks, do you?

Yes.

This may involve taking 10; however, given the danger of drowning, this cannot involve taking 20.

This is why fords are important; smart pcs don't just try to swim across the river. That's a good way for folks that aren't good in the water to drown.

I mean, that sounds idiotic outside of an a combat situation.

Indeed. Trying to swim across a rapidly flowing river if you aren't a good enough swimmer is, in fact, idiotic. Again- that's why you usually go to a ford, bridge, etc.

Do you just say that the PCs cross the river and forget about Swim checks?

I am not a softy. Make them Swim checks or go elsewhere. Or drown.

Do you use the Take 10 rule? And, what if, using the Take 10 rule, the result is not enough to exceed the DC required to swim the river? (For example, when Taking 10, a character gets up with a 13 Swim check and the DC to cross the rapids of the river is a DC 15?)

Then you'd best find another way, or not take 10, or find bonuses, or drown.

OK, another example. The PCs are moving overland from one village to another, a couple of days travel. On the eve of the second day, they reach the base of a huge 200 foot cliff.

You don't make a butt load of climb checks, right? That's crazy.

Absolutely you do. A cliff that is not easily climbed may be the kind of natural barrier wise pcs circumnavigate rather than trying to just clamber over. Falls from high places kill. And I am not a soft, give-it-away kind of dm.

Go around, wait until you can climb worth a damn, use the proper tools to get bonuses or fall to your death. But don't ask me for a freebie.

But, wouldn't you want to make a couple of quickie checks to ensure that there were no complications scaling the cliff?

So, how do you handle these sorts of things in your game?

It sounds like I have a whole different level of respect for geography than you do. Have you ever had to deal with crossing a 315' wide river? You do not just swim across it. Have you ever had to get up a 200' tall cliff? You do not just clamber up. Not unless you are an expert swimmer/climber, anyhow.

 

[Dandu]

Or have Spider Climb.

 

[Water Bob]

I think what I'm getting out of this is that the Take 10 is really the mega (or meta, if you prefer) roll--Take 10 replaces the roll.

In the old days of AD&D or even 2E, a situation might come up to where a character would need to run 100 yards to a cliff over difficult terrain, then scale an 80' cliff, to get to the top. I'm talking about scenes here, not in combat.

So, what I might do is have the character make a generally roll for the run, then I might make him make a single (or two or three) climb checks to quickly do the climb. The rolls would be relatively easy, if the character has the skill (non-weapon proficiency, back then) and equipment to make the climb. If a roll ended in failure, I'd randomly roll where it happened during the climb and take it from there.

If in combat, I'd roll every round--but combat is always slower than general play.

It seems that i'm learning that the Take 10 is really used (or, I should say oen of its uses) is for scenes. If a character can Take 10 and climb the cliff, let him do it. If the character can't make it with a Take 10, then the cliff is dicey and probably too hard for him--need to play it out in combat rounds.




And, I guess you've still got a form of meta or mega checks in a d20 game. Let's say the PCs are fighting a battle against a horde of goblins and an NPC is sent to convince the town guard of the closest town to come to their aid. The action would stay focussed on the PCs fighting the goblins, but a single, quick, Diplomacy roll would suffice to see if the NPC could convince the guard captain to lend some men to come help. That negotiation would happen "off camera", and had the PC's gone to do it, it would require more rolls or more roleplay, as that's where the action would be focussed.

 

[Vegepygmy]

It seems that i'm learning that the Take 10 is really used (or, I should say oen of its uses) is for scenes. If a character can Take 10 and climb the cliff, let him do it. If the character can't make it with a Take 10, then the cliff is dicey and probably too hard for him--need to play it out in combat rounds.

This is it precisely.

 

[HoboGod]

I tell my players all the time that the world hasn't changed between 1st level and 15th level. The goblin raiders that tried to rob you at 3rd level still tried to rob you at 13th level, but they were such a ridiculously pathetic challenge against your characters, so I didn't say anything. The dinosaur you saw at 8th level you also saw at 2nd level, your characters just ran like hell back then, so I didn't say anything.

Storytelling is a DM's greatest purpose. The ability to summarize and omit entire chucks of time where the characters do things is a weapon the DM must use to be taken seriously. If you as a DM have presented something worth narrating to your players, a quick swim check to represent the 21 swim checks to cross the river just doesn't cut it. If that's the way you want to approach a 315 ft river, don't bother telling your players that there was a river there to begin with. Make it exciting, make it dangerous, make it a puzzle. If it's a physical challenge, require them to deal 10 points of slashing damage to the seaweed tangling them after 3 swim checks, deal 15 points of damage to the debris in their path after 7 swim checks, make constitution checks to hold their breadth in a strong undercurrent after 13 checks, and their last 5 checks deal nonlethal damage every turn from the icy water. If it's a mental challenge, then let them roll knowledge checks that lead them to clues about where to cross the water, how to dam the river, or how to get a raft.