Metamagic Stacking Question

[Burne]

This is reposted from the House Rules forum, as I posted to the wrong spot.

Q: Does a Maximized Twinned (T&B) Fireball do 60x2 fire damage, or 10d6 and 60 fire damage. Feel free to pretend the example involved Twin and Empower, or Elemental Admixture and Enhance Spell(Epic Metamagic). If this has been address somewhere in the faq or by the Sage I'd love a link. My brief weak search didn't turn up anything.

 

[James McMurray]

This is reposted from the House Rules forum, as I posted to the wrong spot.

Q: Does a Maximized Twinned (T&B) Fireball do 60x2 fire damage, or 10d6 and 60 fire damage. Feel free to pretend the example involved Twin and Empower, or Elemental Admixture and Enhance Spell(Epic Metamagic). If this has been address somewhere in the faq or by the Sage I'd love a link. My brief weak search didn't turn up anything.

IT does 10d6 + 60. Metamagic only affects the base spell, not any additional effects cause by other metamagics.

There are a few exceptions, such as Enhance Spell, which actually changes the spell's damage cap, resulting in more base dice to maximize.

 

[3d6]

It does whatever your DM says it does. There isn't a core rule that addresses the issue.

 

[Hypersmurf]

IT does 10d6 + 60. Metamagic only affects the base spell, not any additional effects cause by other metamagics.

Only stated in the case of applying Empower and Maximize to the same spell. Not stated for any other combination of Metamagic feats.

If I cast an Extended, Cold-Substituted Acid Fog, does it deal Cold damage for 1 round per level, and then Acid damage for the next 1 round per level? If Extend only affects the 'base spell'...?

If I cast an Enlarged Empowered Fireball at caster level 15 (normal range 1000 feet; Expanded range 2000 feet), centred at a point 1000 feet away, does it deal 10d6 damage to creatures in the 'far' half of the spread, and 10d6 x 1.5 to creatures in the 'near' half? If Enlarge only affects the 'base spell'...?

If I cast a Silent Repeated Magic Missile, does the "repeated" portion require a Verbal component? If Silent only affects the 'base spell'...?

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Wow, yet another instance where common sense must be applied. We're on a roll today.

Fear not grasshopper, one day you will understand the wisdom inherent in Zen Dungeon-mastery. And then you too will have no need to worry about the seemingly nonsensical ramifications of some fo the rules. And on that day, you will have achieved true DM enlightenment. And you will go forth from these forums that birthed you, to found your own gaming school somewhere. And you will pass on all that you have learned.

 

[Caliban]

Only stated in the case of applying Empower and Maximize to the same spell. Not stated for any other combination of Metamagic feats.

Why wouldn't the other metamagic feats follow the clearly stated example?

I think you are making it more complex than it needs to be.

If I cast an Extended, Cold-Substituted Acid Fog, does it deal Cold damage for 1 round per level, and then Acid damage for the next 1 round per level? If Extend only affects the 'base spell'...?

No, they affecting different parts of the base spell, so everything would apply. The base spell is extended, and the base spell now deals cold damage.

If I cast an Enlarged Empowered Fireball at caster level 15 (normal range 1000 feet; Expanded range 2000 feet), centred at a point 1000 feet away, does it deal 10d6 damage to creatures in the 'far' half of the spread, and 10d6 x 1.5 to creatures in the 'near' half? If Enlarge only affects the 'base spell'...?

Two different aspects of the base spell are being enhanced.

The base spell now has a greater range, and does an additional +50% damage, in addition to the base damage.

If I cast a Silent Repeated Magic Missile, does the "repeated" portion require a Verbal component? If Silent only affects the 'base spell'...?

-Hyp.

You are still only casting the spell once, not twice. The "Repeat" feat feat simply causes the spell to take effect again next round, but you aren't actually casting it a second time. So the "Silent" feat only needs to affect the base spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, they affecting different parts of the base spell, so everything would apply. The base spell is extended, and the base spell now deals cold damage.

And what if instead of being Cold-Substituted, it's Cold-Admixed?

The Extension increases the damage (since it's dealing damage for more rounds) and the Admixture increases the damage.

Any different? Does it stop dealing cold damage halfway through the spell?

You are still only casting the spell once, not twice. The "Repeat" feat feat simply causes the spell to take effect again next round, but you aren't actually casting it a second time. So the "Silent" feat only needs to affect the base spell.

So shouldn't a Empowered Repeated Magic Missile deal Empowered damage both times?

The Repeat feat simply causes the spell - Empowered Magic Missile - to take effect again the next round.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

And what if instead of being Cold-Substituted, it's Cold-Admixed?

The Extension increases the damage (since it's dealing damage for more rounds) and the Admixture increases the damage.

This isn't accurate. Extension increases the duration, not damage. The fact that the spell itself does damage each round doesn't change that.

Any different? Does it stop dealing cold damage halfway through the spell?

Nope. Remember, we are only dealing a single spell here, and the feats aren't interacting with each other, as they are enhancing different aspects of the spell.

If they were both affecting the same aspect of the spell, then you would have to calculate the effect of each feat as if the other one wasn't being applied, and add the results together.

So shouldn't a Empowered Repeated Magic Missile deal Empowered damage both times?

Nope.

The Repeat feat simply causes the spell - Empowered Magic Missile - to take effect again the next round.

The base spell is Magic Missile, not Empowered Magic Missile. Repeat only copies the base spell, it doesn't copy the metamagic feats.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Repeat only copies the base spell, it doesn't copy the metamagic feats.

And yet Repeat states that "the spell" is Repeated.

It also says it affects "the same area as the original spell".

If I cast a Repeated Sculpted Burning Hands, the "original spell" affects, say, a 10' radius, 30' high cylinder. Does it Repeat as a Cone or a Cylinder?

If I cast a Repeated Widened Fireball, the "original spell" affects a 40' radius spread. Does it repeat at 40' radius or 20' radius?

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

They would repeat as a cylinder and a 40' radius spread respectively. Whenever a specific rule states it overrides a general case, the specific rule (in this case Repeat with area spells) overrides the general case.