Metamagic Stacking Question

[Hypersmurf]

They would repeat as a cylinder and a 40' radius spread respectively. Whenever a specific rule states it overrides a general case, the specific rule (in this case Repeat with area spells) overrides the general case.

But firstly, it doesn't state it's overriding a general case.

And secondly, there is no general case.

The only reference to Metamagic feats not "stacking" is in the combination of Mazimize and Empower. Why is that not "a specific rule overriding a general case"?

There's no general rule that states that all metamagic feats affect the base spell only. There is a specific rule that states that when a spell is both Empowered and Maximized, the effects apply separately.

How can Repeat Spell be an specific exception to a "general case" that only exists as a completely different specific exception?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

And yet Repeat states that "the spell" is Repeated.

It also says it affects "the same area as the original spell".

Yes, and the "original" spell is the spell without metamagic feats. That seems pretty obvious to me, since there is a distinct difference between the Magic Missile spell printed in the PHB and an Empowered Magic Missile.

If I cast a Repeated Sculpted Burning Hands, the "original spell" affects, say, a 10' radius, 30' high cylinder. Does it Repeat as a Cone or a Cylinder?

The "original spell" affects a cone. The "sculpted spell" affects a cylinder. The Repeat feat only repeats the original spell, not the original spell + metamagic modifications.

If I cast a Repeated Widened Fireball, the "original spell" affects a 40' radius spread. Does it repeat at 40' radius or 20' radius?

-Hyp.

Why do you keep asking basically the same question over and over again? This is getting tiresome, and doesn't change the answer.

What rules based support do you have for feats like Twin and Repeat to multiply the effects of other metamagic feats? Why should those feats be more powerful than Quicken? Why do you think they should be more effective than "Empower + Maximize" ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, and the "original" spell is the spell without metamagic feats. That seems pretty obvious to me, since there is a distinct difference between the Magic Missile spell printed in the PHB and an Empowered Magic Missile.

That's not how I read it at all.

"A repeated spell is automatically case again at the beginning of your next turn in the round. No matter where you are, the second spell originates from the same location and affects the same area as the original spell."

"The original spell" is the spell that the second spell is originating from the same location as. The spell that went off in the first round. A Burning Hands did not originate last round, so how can the second spell originate from the same location as Burning Hands?

What rules based support do you have for feats like Twin and Repeat to multiply the effects of other metamagic feats? Why should those feats be more powerful than Quicken? Why do you think they should be more effective than "Empower + Maximize" ?

I don't think they are more powerful than Quicken. A Quickened spell means I can cast, say, Magic Missile as a free action any time I like, for a +4 level bump. A Repeated Spell or Twin Spell means I can cast Magic Missile as effectively a free action... if and only if I'm willing to cast another Magic Missile as a standard action at exactly the same target, for a +4 level bump, or +3 if I'm willing to delay the second spell a round.

That's not more powerful, as far as I'm concerned.

As for more effective than Empower + Maximize - why, because there's a rule that specifically limits Empower + Maximize. Unlike any other metamagic combination.

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

Personally I feel the restriction to Empower and Maximize is rediculous.

A maximized, empowered fireball is an 8th level spell, and has consumed two feat slots for the ability to cast it. Now it affects a small area (for an 8th level spell) and has a measily save (as a 3rd level spell). Is it so terribly, terribly unbalancing to have it do 120 hp instead of 60 + 35 (on average) = 95 hp? I think not. Any opposition worthy of the name at this level (CR 15+) is most likely going to make that save anyway, so the difference is now a startling 12,5 hp: or less than half the damage the fighter can deal with one blow.

Applying this rule to twinned, heightened X, and it becomes really wierd, one of the spells is heightened, the other isn't? For what reason would one possibly want this horribly expensive combination then (at least +5 spell levels)? Of course one could argue: "don't use it"! But where is the fun in that? These options are included in order to be used and they should provide commiserate benefits to those expending the feats.

Not a rules based argument, rather a fun based argument using "balance" as part of the equation.

 

[Caliban]

That's not how I read it at all.

"A repeated spell is automatically case again at the beginning of your next turn in the round. No matter where you are, the second spell originates from the same location and affects the same area as the original spell."

"The original spell" is the spell that the second spell is originating from the same location as. The spell that went off in the first round. A Burning Hands did not originate last round, so how can the second spell originate from the same location as Burning Hands?

A Burning Hands + Metamagic went off in the first round. The Burning Hands is repeated. Metamagic feats aren't spells, last I checked, so they aren't repeated.


Unless you think the rules say that Repeat Spell or Twin spell copy metamagic feats? If so, please show me where it says that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A Burning Hands + Metamagic went off in the first round. The Burning Hands is repeated. Metamagic feats aren't spells, last I checked, so they aren't repeated.

The feat isn't a spell. But a spell with a feat applied is still a spell.

You're applying the Repeat Spell feat to Sculpted Burning Hands.

Wands store spells. I can store Sculpted Burning Hands in a wand. Sculpted Burning Hands is a spell.

Repeat Spell is a feat applied to a spell. I apply it to Sculpted Burning Hands. Sculpted Burning Hands occurs immediately, and repeats the next round.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Is it so terribly, terribly unbalancing to have it do 120 hp instead of 60 + 35 (on average) = 95 hp? I think not.

And I agree with you, but we're few.

But the case of Maximize+Empower at least is specifically stated how is should work. There is otherwise no general rule about combining other metamagic, and the doubts arise when dealing with feats from supplements, whose stacking with core feats is not necessarily tested or consider carefully as it might have been between core feats.

There are a few non-core metamagic feats that basically double a spell (Repeat Spell, Twin Spell at least) and they all increase the spell slot by 4, which is also the same that double-Empower did in 3.0 - well, in 3.5 you can't apply the same MM anymore, but that's another story.

The trend seems to me very clear: to "double" a spell costs +4 in spell slot.

A spell that is 3rd level becomes 7th level. I don't think that a spell that is 3rd level because it was originally lower and then metamagicked, would not be balanced if "doubled" in one of those ways. Applying metamagic one by one is a very beautiful system. The only danger really comes when you have a way to "decrease the slot level increase".

 

[Caliban]

The feat isn't a spell. But a spell with a feat applied is still a spell.

You're applying the Repeat Spell feat to Sculpted Burning Hands.

Burning Hands is the original spell, Sculpted Burning Hands is not. Sculpted Burning Hands is not "a spell", it's a Spell + Metamagic. There is a difference.

Wands store spells. I can store Sculpted Burning Hands in a wand. Sculpted Burning Hands is a spell.

Wands (and other magic items) are specifically allowed to store spells with metamagic feats.

Where does it say that repeat spell will duplicate a metamagic feat? Seriously, I want to see some actual support, not just an opinion.

Repeat Spell is a feat applied to a spell. I apply it to Sculpted Burning Hands. Sculpted Burning Hands occurs immediately, and repeats the next round.

-Hyp.

No, I'm afraid you are wrong on this one Hyp. I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will convince you of this though.

 

[green slime]

Applying metamagic one by one is a very beautiful system. The only danger really comes when you have a way to "decrease the slot level increase".

Yes indeed. Improved Metamagic (from ELH) and the Incantrix from FR were truly terrifying examples.

The person who actually decided these were a good idea to put into print should be shot. Or at least dragged away and placed under lock and key for the term of their natural life...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Burning Hands is the original spell, Sculpted Burning Hands is not. Sculpted Burning Hands is not "a spell", it's a Spell + Metamagic. There is a difference.

Of course it's a spell.

You use the "Cast a Spell" action to cast it.

You prepare it in a spell slot.

It's affected by Spell Resistance.

It suffers from Arcane Spell Failure.

It can be stored in a Spell Completion or Spell Trigger item.

A spell with a feat applied is still a spell.

-Hyp.