Metamagic Stacking Question

[Li Shenron]

No, I'm afraid you are wrong on this one Hyp. I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will convince you of this though.

I am not sure what "original" spell really mean. Would it make a difference if it said "base" spell? Would it mean the same? Was it intended to mean exactly the spell before previously applied metamagic or is it just a word tossed in? What if you "first" apply Twin Spell and then the other metamagic (I don't know if every mm feat refers to the "original" spell, you know this better than me)?

If that was intended, for what purpose? To prevent exploitation? So what about a Twinned Cold-Substituted Fireball: to me it should deal cold damage both times, if it dealt once cold and then fire it would be generally better (and you would be effectively having the Energy Admixture effect without the feat, IIRC).

As a side note, again about stacking metamagic in general: the rules seems to become more and more cautious (I mean, since 3.0, then the errata/faq/sage advice, and finally 3.5) about stacking mm. The original 3.0 rules were very linear. Later someone thought that is should be less than linear otherwise it's too good; but increasing slots is NOT a linear cost IMHO, since increasing e.g. a spell from level 1 to 2 is less "expensive" than increasing it from 2 to 3. Applying the same mm twice or applying different mm one after the other (and not always upon the "original" spell) has a cost that is already in general higher than the benefit.

 

[Caliban]

Of course it's a spell.

Burning Hands is the spell.

You use the "Cast a Spell" action to cast it.

Sure, since you are casting Burning Hands. The metamagic feats simply modify the original spell. All of them modify the effects of the original spell without actually changing the spell itself. (Except in the case of Heighten, which actually changes the level of the original spell.)

Your method would require that that the feats apply in a certain order, and I don't see where that is stated or implied anywhere in the rules.

Why would the Cold Substitution be applied before the Twin Spell? If you Twin the original spell, and then Cold Substitute the original spell you get one thing. If you Cold Substititute it first, and then Twin or Repeat it, you get something else.


I think all the metamagic feats are applied at once to the original spell. So the original spell is copied with a Twin or Repeat, and it is also Cold Substituted or Maximed. Since they happen simultaneously, the feats don't "see" each other.

That is why Empower and Maximize work the way they do, and why Twin and Repeat don't multiply the effects of other feats.

That's reasonable, consistent, and follows the clearly stated example in the rules.

 

[Wippit Guud]

I think all the metamagic feats are applied at once to the original spell. So the original spell is copied with a Twin or Repeat, and it is also Cold Substituted or Maximed. Since they happen simultaneously, the feats don't "see" each other.

If the feats don't see each other, then the level increase shouldn't stack. The higher increase would override the lower one in the same way that a ring of protection +3 overrides a +1.

But, since we knoe the changes are cumulative, this can't be the case

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your method would require that that the feats apply in a certain order...

Not at all.

I don't see any problem with Sculpting a Repeating Burning Hands. Neither feat is Empower or Maximize, after all.

Whether the Sculpted Burning Hands repeats, or the Repeating Burning Hands is sculpted, the result is the same: a cylinder of flame on two consecutive rounds.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

If the feats don't see each other, then the level increase shouldn't stack. The higher increase would override the lower one in the same way that a ring of protection +3 overrides a +1.

But, since we knoe the changes are cumulative, this can't be the case

I'm afraid that doesn't follow. The effects of the feats all still apply, otherwise you couldn't have more than one metamagic feat on a spell.

 

[Caliban]

Not at all.

I don't see any problem with Sculpting a Repeating Burning Hands. Neither feat is Empower or Maximize, after all.

Whether the Sculpted Burning Hands repeats, or the Repeating Burning Hands is sculpted, the result is the same: a cylinder of flame on two consecutive rounds.

-Hyp.

I really don't think you are looking at this the right way Hyp.

Now do it with Twin Spell. To get the effect you want requires them to be applied in a certain order. Once again, where is it stated that you determine the order in which feats are applied?

And how is "Original Spell" the spell with metamagic feats applied? Where is it written that metamagic feats are part of "original" spell.

Your way requires you to make a lot of assumptions that aren't written in the rules, and are counter to the specific example we do have.

Your way would have metamagic feats being applied inconsistently.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm afraid that doesn't follow. The effects of the feats all still apply, otherwise you couldn't have more than one metamagic feat on a spell.

So what would you say are the effects of:

a/ Cold-Substituted Maximized Burning Hands;
b/ Cold-Admixed Maximized Burning Hands?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

So what would you say are the effects of:

a/ Cold-Substituted Maximized Burning Hands;
b/ Cold-Admixed Maximized Burning Hands?

-Hyp.

Why do you keep asking these questions instead of actually providing support for your position?

In any case:

A) The damage type of the base spell is changed to "Cold" and the Damage of the base spell is maximized. So it's a burning hands that does cold damage and maximum damage.

B) The damage of the base spell is maximized, and it does an additional xd4 cold damage (additional damage beyond the base spell is not maximized - same principal as an empowered+maximized spell.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now do it with Twin Spell. To get the effect you want requires them to be applied in a certain order.

No, it doesn't.

I can Twin an Empowered Magic Missile, or I can Empower a Twinned Magic Missile. Either way gives the same result - the order is unimportant.

Once again, where is it stated that you determine the order in which feats are applied?

The order doesn't matter.

Your way requires you to make a lot of assumptions that aren't written in the rules, and are counter to the specific example we do have.

Your way requires a lot of assumptions also, and the "specific example" is not given as a specific example, but a specific case. It's not "As with any combination of metamagic feats, Empower and Maximize apply their effects separately to the base spell". It's "An Empowered, Maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat".

Your way would have metamagic feats being applied inconsistently.

The only inconsistency is with Empower and Maximize in combination... because they are given a specific exception in the text of the feats.

If Energy Substitution carried a note "A single spell may not use both the Sonic Substitution and Silent Spell feats", that wouldn't mean you can't use Silent Spell in combination with any metamagic feat; it would mean you couldn'y use it in combination with Sonic Substitution.

There is no hint given that the specific case of Empower and Maximize is intended to be generalised to cover all Metamagic feats.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

No, it doesn't.

I can Twin an Empowered Magic Missile, or I can Empower a Twinned Magic Missile. Either way gives the same result - the order is unimportant.

Not true. Read the feat, Twin causes the spell to be cast a second time. If you apply Twin it before applying the empower, only one copy of the spell get's empowered. If you applied empower before Twin, then you would have two Empowered spells for the price of one Empower.

Once again, why should Twin multiply the effects of other metamagic feats?

Also, where do you get the interpretation that "original spell" somehow includes the spell+metamagic feats? You still haven't answered that question.

Your way requires a lot of assumptions also,

Really? The only assumption I'm making is that it works the same way for all feats. What are all these extra assumptions you say I'm making?

and the "specific example" is not given as a specific example, but a specific case. It's not "As with any combination of metamagic feats, Empower and Maximize apply their effects separately to the base spell". It's "An Empowered, Maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat".

And why do you believe that doesn't apply to other feats as well? What rules based support do you have for your intepretation?

There is no hint given that the specific case of Empower and Maximize is intended to be generalised to cover all Metamagic feats.

-Hyp.

I think it does imply exactly that. But even if it doesn't, what makes you think it would work differently for all other feats? Does anything imply differently? What are you using as a basis for your interpretation? You've haven't answered that question either.

I've answered every single one of your case by case questions, please do me the courtesy of answering the questions I've repeatedly asked you.