Micro-managing penalties

[Quasqueton]

I usually try not to micro-manage penalties on my Players' characters. I do want the Players to track how many arrows/bolts they've fired; how much weight they have in their backpack; etc. These are things actually tracked in the game rules. Arrows/bolts cost money and must be replenished occassionally. Weight carried affects movement. These are quantifiable numbers in the rules.

And when a mage has half-a-dozen scrolls, or the fighter has a few potions, we can easily assume these items are kept near to hand --- tucked in a belt loop, in a cloak pocket, etc. --- somewhere easily accessable with a move action. These are not quantifiable in the rules, but a little shrug, and a "that's ok" can cover this without hurting anything.

But sometimes this gets a bit carried away. When the archer carries 4 quivers with 20 arrows each. When the rogue has a backpack full of 3,000 coins (only 60 pounds, easy with 12 Strength). When the mage has 25 scrolls ready to use. When the fighter has 15 potions all easy to hand. Etc.


And then there are things like:

Player: "OK, I'll use my battering ram to smash open the door."

DM: "Huh? What battering ram?"

Player: "The one I brought with me."

DM: "You've been carrying a battering ram all the way through this dungeon?"

Player: "Yeah. I told you I bought it."

DM: "But I figured it was on your horse or something. You've just been through 3 battles with orcs carrying a 20-pound battering ram."

Player: "I'm still just lightly encumbered. And I'm a monk. I don't need my hands free."
or
Player: "I just have it tied to my backpack."


And then there are situations like when the mage casts spider climb on the archer, who then goes to the ceiling of the chamber to rain down arrows on the BBEG. Spider climb is not reverse gravity, so shouldn't the archer's gear all fall "up", including the arrows out of the quivers? Should the archer have penalties for firing upside down? What should they be?

Or when the cleric casts water breathing on everyone, and they all swim through the tunnel and into the next area. What are the penalties for being out of water but wet? Are scroll cases water tight?


Again, I don't like throwing around penalties willy-nilly, especially with no rules guidance. I've seen DMs get carried away with this kind of thing. I've seen micro-managing of penalties get to the point where a PC could hardly do anything without at least a -1 for something. And then the Players start looking for bonuses for every little thing to make up for it (or to overcome any potential penalties). "The blood on the floor makes movement slippery, make a Balance check when moving more than a 5' step." "Hey, I'm over 2 feet taller than him, shouldn't I get a higher ground bonus?"

How do you rule on these things? Like how many arrows can an archer carry? Does a backpack full of loose coins hinder a rogue's stealth? Does swimming across a river ruin an adventurer's gear? Does carrying a 10' pole give penalties in combat? How many potions can you have easily accessable? Etc.

Quasqueton

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't slap rules on any of that. If I recall, you do have to have your hands free to spider climb, though.

Unless a PC tries something really ludicrous (Str 6 rogue in full plate carrying a greatsword, a pack full of gold, two hand crossbows, 200 bolts, a 10 ft. pole, and, and...), I don't track weight.

Unless the PCs are out of contact with civilization or extremely low in wealth, I don't track non-magical ammunition, either.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

One nifty way to solve this problem is to have an adventure where the reward is a bunch of Heward's Handy Haversacks. It isn't really gamebreaking to hand these things out like party favors and you can solve about half of the encumberance issues this way.

Maybe you can tie the reward into a teamster's guild or travel between two cities or something.

 

[Quasqueton]

Unless a PC tries something really ludicrous (Str 6 rogue in full plate carrying a greatsword, a pack full of gold, two hand crossbows, 200 bolts, a 10 ft. pole, and, and...), I don't track weight.

But does carrying that 10' pole hinder the rogue's stealth? How about carrying (not wearing) that suit of full plate? Does it hinder the rogue's stealth? Sure, it is easy to say you don't allow some ludicrous scenario, but I'm talking about where to draw the line with less-than-ludicrous scenarios, and where to start applying penalties.

How about if the fighter has to carry an unconscious halfling over his shoulder. Does this affect his fighting ability?

Quasqueton

 

[jonesy]

And then there are things like:

Player: "OK, I'll use my battering ram to smash open the door."

DM: "Huh? What battering ram?"

Player: "The one I brought with me."

DM: "You've been carrying a battering ram all the way through this dungeon?"

Player: "Yeah. I told you I bought it."

DM: "But I figured it was on your horse or something. You've just been through 3 battles with orcs carrying a 20-pound battering ram."

Player: "I'm still just lightly encumbered. And I'm a monk. I don't need my hands free."
or
Player: "I just have it tied to my backpack."

I might allow something like that if the character were to drop the ram when a battle began.

It's not just about the weight, it's the lenght as well. How exactly does one keep the ram from bumping into things in a battle?

 

[diaglo]

i carry around infinite slings. they weigh nothing. and they cost even less.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I try not to get into too many of these arguements with my players, but at the same time, I try to keep things from getting too out of hand.

For the wizard I play, he has a scroll bandolier (I think it was in Tome and Magic) for fast easy access to scrolls. Scroll cases I have always ruled to be water-tight (hmm, but the bandolier would not be...).

Spider climbing onto the ceiling is not Reverse Gravity and so yes, things fall. I've used this on the party monk with Slippers of Spider Climbing, that and if the ceiling is not extremely high, he finds himself banging heads with people on the floor.

Things like the battering ram I would not have an issue with, I would assume it was secured to a backpack or something, but as a result it would take a few moments to get to it, it would not be instantly accessible.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

But does carrying that 10' pole hinder the rogue's stealth? How about carrying (not wearing) that suit of full plate? Does it hinder the rogue's stealth? Sure, it is easy to say you don't allow some ludicrous scenario, but I'm talking about where to draw the line with less-than-ludicrous scenarios, and where to start applying penalties.

How about if the fighter has to carry an unconscious halfling over his shoulder. Does this affect his fighting ability?

Quasqueton

No to anything from the first paragraph. Rogues who carry spare suits of full plate are a rare commodity, but presumably they know how to stash it so it doesn't make noise. No, it wouldn't affect his stealth. A 10' pole? It's more likely to hinder his ability to get through tight spaces than it is his stealth.

An 11' pole, however, gives a -1 to Hide and, if recognized, Diplomacy. 'cause it's munchkin.

As to the fighter and the halfling, the former might have to keep a hand free to hold the latter (or else drop him for 1d6 damage), which could be a big penalty to most fighting styles. If he or an ally makes a Use Rope check, he could stow his comrade without using his hands and would take no penalties.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

For items carried, I tried to desing my character sheets to take into account the item slots available to the characters. I assume that every character is outfitted with a potion belt and a bandoleer (both from FRCS, IIRC). Both these items have a number of slots in which you may put appropriate items (potions / small containers for the belt, scrolls / items weighing less than 1 lb in the bandoleer). I know it sounds like "CRPG" but it simplifies things.

Another way to simplify things is to disregard these things as long as the players don't abuse it. In the case of the battering ram, I would have accepted the fact that the player carries around a battering ram, but once I learned about it, I would have told the player that his character drops the ram in combat situations.

For the Spider Climbing archer, I think that you do need your hands to climb, so the situation should not have arised. If it's missed the first time, it's rectified after the fight, and understood that such a thing can't happen.

I have understanding players, so if I tell them "no way you're carrying all of this", they'll understand and rectify the situation themselves.

AR

 

[azmodean]

Let's see, the battering ram. That one is probably not an issue as it is actually a portable battering ram, designed to be carried by a paerson. (wether you allow the existence of a "portable battering ram" is a seperate issue)

I do have issue with the "infinite stuff in easy reach" problem. If anyone has more than about a dozen potions/scrolls, I have them limit the ones in "easy reach" to about a dozen unless they invest in a special organizer. (about 2 doxen if they have a mundane item for the purpose, nearly unlimited for a handy haversack or belt of many pockets.) With the quivers, I think I'd limit it to two, though this hasn't come up in my game. (in your situation, do they have 4 quivers ready? or are some of them stored?)

Spider climb is probably frequently misused, as noted earlier it does not allow you to use a weapon while climbing, as "you must have your hands free while climbing" from the spell description. Unless you can fire lightning bolts from your, er posterior. If someone carrying open containers (quivers) were to state they were climbing upside down, I would have them make a dex check each round to avoid spillage.

A few other issues, I assume that a good scroll case would be water-tight (and by good, I don't mean magical) on the other hand, I'm not sure retrieving a scroll from a securely-closing case would be a move-equivalent action...

I wouldn't assign a penalty for carrying or 'wearing' a 10' pole, halberd, longspear, etc in combat, though I would assign one of the character were in a hallway with dimensions less than 10'x10'. They could get a sectioned pole, but it takes a full-round action to assemble.

As for number of arrows an archer could carry, as mentioned I'd allow 2 ready quivers, and an unlimited number of additional quivers (up to the encumberance they are willing to deal with) stowed away.

On the subject of load, the rogue you mentioned is probably heavily encumbered unless they are not wearing any armor. 60 lbs puts a str 12 humaniod at medium load, add leather armor(15lb), the backpack itself(2lb), and you are uncomfortably close to heavy encumberance. (87lbs) Food, torches, and weapons could easily make up that 10lb difference.

Something you didn't mention, but I have thought of in the past, is the negligible weight items. There are quite a lot of items listed at negligible weight(potions, scrolls, rings, gems), and some characters accumulate quite a lot of them. I tend to count these as the same weight as coins, though only in a really odd situation does it become a problem.