Midnight: Spellcasting and Magic Items system

[Li Shenron]

If you are playing in the Midnight setting, what is your opinion about the Spellcasting system? What about how magic items are treated in the campaign, especially regarding availability and creation? Can you use the second along with the core D&D spellcasting system instead?

As I was trying to write down some guidelines to handle magic items differently in a campaign, I stumbled upon the Midnight setting book (I was actually looking for regional ideas...) and noticed the aforementioned rules. Besides spellcasting which I anyway want to keep it as it is in core D&D, how magic items are handled in Midnight is almost exactly what I was thinking myself!

The most critical part of integrating the Midnight system in a classic D&D campaign is about magic item creation. Since money means little more than nothing in this system (you cannot buy or sell magic equipment), crafting a magic item has NO money cost. Clearly the DM has to introduce some other restrictions, otherwise the consequences are obvious and especially dire for low-cost items like scrolls, potions and wands, whose Xp cost is often negligible.

Before reading these rules in Midnight, I thought about several possibilities: (1) increasing the Xp cost, (2) increasing the crafting time, (3) giving spell-storing items an expiration date, (4) hard-limiting the number of items per person at any time, (5) using UA craft points. At the end the only feasible one was the (1), and I thought about raising the cost in Xp equal to 1/5 of the market price.
Midnight keeps the time and Xp cost unchanged, and eliminates the Gp cost, but leaves it wholly in the hands of the DM by restricting item creation to Nexus locations. How easy is it to use and balance such a thing in a non-Midnight campaign?

Making money useless raises other issues, among which how to adjudicate expensive material and focus components, however it would be a very nice change to try out. A benefit would be to eliminate the pathetic habit of loot* everything / sell everything / buy what you need and another one would be to encourage mundane investments of the treasure.

*PC may still want to loot for magic items, but their powers will be tied to individuals by further rules to come to limit looting

 

[S'mon]

Playing in Midnight - the spellcasting power points system seems a good idea, but it badly needs proper Midnight-specific spell lists with points cost per spell (like eg the Conan & Slaine RPGs do), instead of just allowing Channelers to choose from every non-Cleric spell in the PHB!

 

[StalkingBlue]

Midnight keeps the time and Xp cost unchanged, and eliminates the Gp cost, but leaves it wholly in the hands of the DM by restricting item creation to Nexus locations. How easy is it to use and balance such a thing in a non-Midnight campaign?

Generally speaking, you control magic item creation only as long as you control access to/use of power nexuses within the PCs' reach. Once PCs hae unlocked the secret of one, in theory there's nothing to stop them from going back time and again to gorge on new and finer items, they might even decide to start a trade (to barter for items they can't make but NPCs can).

What can help is to make power nexuses scarce. This is entirely appropriate if you want a rare-magic game I think, and it makes taking item creation feats much less attractive to take for PCs. The channeler in my Midnight game, now 6th level, currently knows of the location of only one power nexus, a nexus which has two drawbacks:
- It's located behind enemy lines so he can't get to it easily; and
- it's attuned to abjuration magic, a school he hasn't bothered to learn, so even if he could get there he couldn't tap its main potential (as you've probably read, MN spellcasting is unlocked by school, by taking appropriate feats).
Needless to say, the player isn't currently planning to take item creation feats for the PC.

Making money useless raises other issues, among which how to adjudicate expensive material and focus components, however it would be a very nice change to try out. A benefit would be to eliminate the pathetic habit of loot* everything / sell everything / buy what you need and another one would be to encourage mundane investments of the treasure.

Oh yes. I can't tell you how much game time it has freed up in my Midnight game that players have broken themselves of the habit of picking up every last little gold piece and Det-Magicking every last item. Theses days enemy corpses can count themselves lucky if they get so much as cursorily looted.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Regarding the change of the Magic System:
Even if you don't use the Spell Point system I'd still require the Channeller in question to take the necessary feats to get access to the schools. A Channeller isn't supposed to get the flashy offensive spells until later levels. Magic Missile isn't even available until 7th level. Changing that up would change the feel of the game if your 5th level Channeller was running around throwing Fireballs at Izrador's minions.

Regarding the creation of magic items:
When creating magic items the gold piece cost need not necessarily come from gold. That is the value of the raw materials needed to create the item. Let's say you needed 30 gp worth of materials to create an item. Using the barter system if you had several wolf pelts you could take those into a town and trade them in for the raw materials. Either way you would have sacrificed an equivelent level of wealth for the item. Covenant items aren't something that I think should be "created" by a PC Channeller. Every Covenant item has a story to it and has passed through the hands of many heros. It doesn't feel right for a PC to be able to create one of those on the fly.

Personally I wouldn't change anything. Everything in the game is geared the way it is for a specific feel. The magic system works well and I've had no complaints from my players. Give it a shot as is... you might like it.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Er, Calico... Li Shenron isn't planning on running Midnight. She also said in her post above that she isn't using the magic system, just considering using the item creation rules in her own setting.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Which reminds me that I forgot earlier to post one other thought I had related to this question:

How easy is it to use and balance such a thing in a non-Midnight campaign?

I'd say as long as you keep magic item supply under DM control, you can do ongoing balancing by ear as the game progresses.

One balance problem you're going to have is that if you restrict accessibility of magic items but use the DnD spell system unchanged, at higher levels spellcasters will grow to be a great deal more powerful than non-spellcasting characters (who in a standard, magic-goodies-flooded setting would compensate by decorating themselves with magic items all over). This may force you into providing the party with lots of magic items to help the non-spellcasters keep up in the longer run. If you're fine with that, I don't see balance problems.

As I've said before, balance could be upset by PCs abusing access to power nexuses unless you take steps to prevent that.
If you like you could always have power nexuses guarded (and perhaps fuelled) by appropriate powerful outsiders/elementals/spirits/demons or whatever appropriate in your game world, and make access to power nexuses dependent on a close relation and friendship with them. In practice this might mean that items are created only by NPC spellcasters living close to the nexus tending to the nexus's guardian.

 

[Li Shenron]

Covenant items aren't something that I think should be "created" by a PC Channeller. Every Covenant item has a story to it and has passed through the hands of many heros. It doesn't feel right for a PC to be able to create one of those on the fly.

That is true, but I think I should let you know that every magic item in the campaign is going to be like a covenant item - except for Scrolls, Potions and Wands.

The idea is that every PC will have very few items during their life. For example, a warrior could have a magic weapon, and later on perhaps a magic shield or armor. The powers of each are going to appear throughout her life, on a semi-random basis decided by the DM according to the PC abilities and actions: for example, she could have received her +1 Longsword when she was asked to join an order of holy warriors after she proved her worthy in an adventure; after some level the weapon becomes Bane vs Demons since she is always battling demons with a particular zeal; then at some other level the weapon becomes Flaming as she deals the lethal blow to an evil dragon; and perhaps the enhancement bonus raises to +2 and then +3 as the years go by.

To keep a reason to take item creation feats, the crafter could be able to choose which kind of special abilities are "awaken" from the item.

Also, there is another issue of tying the item to the character. In the case of the warrior above, should anyone else wield her weapon, the sword might only be a +1 Longsword with a small chance to activate the Flaming ability by someone with UMD; perhaps in the hands of someone who is of alignment opposed to the rightful owner, it could even bestow a curse, such as attracting demons or giving a penalty against them.

With this in mind, another benefit of item creation feats could be that the abilities awaken with them are not tied to the owner, who can share the item with party mates.

Personally I wouldn't change anything. Everything in the game is geared the way it is for a specific feel. The magic system works well and I've had no complaints from my players. Give it a shot as is... you might like it.

As StalkingBlue said, I won't run a full-Midnight setting, I am just considering trying its magic items rules . I like the spellcasting system as well, but there are already other spellcasting variants that I want to try before (the spell points from UA, for example), and I don't want too many critical changes at once for the moment... the magic item system is already going to be a shock for players used to core D&D

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

My only concern with using the Midnight system in a non-Midnight setting is that one of the biggest restrictions on having magic items in Midnight is the constant risk of detection. You don't want a character loaded with magic items unless you want every Legate and Astirax for miles around coming after you. If that restriction isn't upon your party, the use of a Nexus, once found, can become a simple way to power up at low cost.

 

[Li Shenron]

One balance problem you're going to have is that if you restrict accessibility of magic items but use the DnD spell system unchanged, at higher levels spellcasters will grow to be a great deal more powerful than non-spellcasting characters (who in a standard, magic-goodies-flooded setting would compensate by decorating themselves with magic items all over). This may force you into providing the party with lots of magic items to help the non-spellcasters keep up in the longer run.

True, however I will try to keep those few covenant magic items powerful enough to be equivalent to the many items a normal PC has at a particular level.

I wrote this example in a previous thread last week: my sorceress at 8th level had the following items

- hat of disguise
- cloak of charisma +2
- amulet of natural armor +1
- vest of escape
- gloves of dexterity +2
- ring of feather fall
- ring of counterspell

plus four 1st level wands.

Then found bracers of armor +2, and was given an extra +1 longsword from the ranger who had too many.

Beside the wands and the sword, all the bonuses and features above could be included in the same single magic item, perhaps a robe which is going to be a signature of the character, only if those abilities appear gradually in time and appropriately for the sorceress' current level. If that is handled well, all the PC - assuming they have at least 1 item each - are still as powerful as in core D&D.

As I've said before, balance could be upset by PCs abusing access to power nexuses unless you take steps to prevent that.

At least I could make all the Nexus finite, so that after a while they don't recharge anymore.

As a matter of fact, with important items there is not much problem. To keep them in line with supposed PC wealth, I could just tell the Wiz that "it's going to take you a few years before you complete the new enchantment to the warrior's sword".
The bigger problem is with scrolls, wands and potions - the expendable items - which have a small cost. If I use the Midnight rules, so that you make them for free, it's much more difficult to control the right number, unless I reintroduce the standard rules for treasure, and lose a major benefit of the new rules...

 

[StalkingBlue]

... Beside the wands and the sword, all the bonuses and features above could be included in the same single magic item, perhaps a robe which is going to be a signature of the character, only if those abilities appear gradually in time and appropriately for the sorceress' current level. If that is handled well, all the PC - assuming they have at least 1 item each - are still as powerful as in core D&D.

Sounds like a cool way of handling it. Covenant items rock anyway.

I'm having the covenant items IMC adapt to their owner's personality over time, in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, and the unlocking of new powers is often accompanied by brief visions or flashbacks showing glimpses of, say, heroic deeds done by a former owner.
For example, when one PC died heroically confronting a BBEG, his dying words were magically transmitted to his faraway brother through a pair of bracelets they were wearing. Since then the wearer of each bracelet can contact the other through a Whispering-Wind type spell once per day - an ability that was announced by whispering echoes of the dead PC's dying message.
Another PC, wielder of an extremely ancient bastard sword, has had glimpses of historic battles whenever new powers of the sword were unlocked.

At least I could make all the Nexus finite, so that after a while they don't recharge anymore.

Could do, yup.

As a matter of fact, with important items there is not much problem. To keep them in line with supposed PC wealth, I could just tell the Wiz that "it's going to take you a few years before you complete the new enchantment to the warrior's sword".

In that case, why not restrict item creation feats anyway? I would be a bit miffed if I'd sunk a feat in Craft Arms and Armor and then got a reply like that from my DM.

The bigger problem is with scrolls, wands and potions - the expendable items - which have a small cost. If I use the Midnight rules, so that you make them for free, it's much more difficult to control the right number, unless I reintroduce the standard rules for treasure, and lose a major benefit of the new rules...

Hm. Exactly how important are one-use or charged items for your game? If you wanted you could scrap them alltogether. IMC the PCs, currently averaging 6th level, haven't seen a single wand or potion yet, only a few divine scrolls carried and used by enemy legates (Midnight evil clerics) that can't be used by any of the PCs. You might have to introduce a house rule under which a Heal check can cure hp, allow Midnight charms into your game, and you're set.