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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7764845" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>They're just action declarations. I don't use Martial Practices in my 4e game. (A difference between me and [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION].)</p><p></p><p>My point is that if simpe action declarations resolved as skill checks can do things "comprable to raising the dead" or "opening portals to other planes" then Martial Practices can hardly make martial PCs <em>less</em> capable.</p><p></p><p>As to your other post: I don't know on what basis you say that I said, in another post, that "ritual caster alone makes casters more effective than martial PC's in 4e." I didn't say that, and don't agree with it. I've posted multiple actual play examples in this thread that show why I don't agree with it. What post are you referring to? And is your view based on your own play experience?</p><p></p><p>As to thinking that the invoker/wizard caster in my game doesn't leverage the rules well, please read <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?342615-PCs-defeat-Miska-but-relinquish-the-Crystal-of-the-Ebon-Flame" target="_blank">these</a> <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">two</a> actual play reports and then tell me what the weakness of play consists in.</p><p></p><p>The explanation for why ritual casting doesn't dominate play in 4e as I experience it is fairly straightforward. Domination in play can take two main forms: providing mechanical solutions to challenges; and shaping the context of play itself, determining what will count and what won't.</p><p></p><p>When resolution is taking place in the context of a skill challenge, a ritual is just another input from one player - even if it succeeds, it grants an automatic success and no more. The player of the martial PC also gets to declare actions. And if those actions are the key ones, that actually shape the outcome, then it is the martial PC who has driven things.</p><p></p><p>The first of the two actual play experiences shows the invoker/wizard taking the lead. He uses rituals as part of that, but not all of it. The second of the two actual play experiences shows the dwarf fighter/cleric taking the lead. He uses Intimidation and fighting to do that.</p><p></p><p>This is another illustration of the significance of closed scene resolution.</p><p></p><p>So is the procedure for setting DCs in 4e and 5e the same, or not? Are the DCs in 5e set "in a purely gamist manner"?</p><p></p><p>I don't really know what "gamist" means here - it seems to mean more than "by the rules" but I"m not sure what that more is - but in any event I think that the systems are quite different. In 4e the fiction tells you whether or not something is feasible - eg we know that the fighter/cleric can sway Yan-C-Bin, or the maruts, by intimidating them because we know that, in the fiction, he is an Eternal Defender who, following Torog's death, has taken on the mantle of god of pain and imprisonment. We then set a DC for that by looking at the chart.</p><p></p><p>In 5e there is no chart but I otherwise have no idea, even after reading all the posts in this thread, how the DC is set. No doubt the GM intuits how hard it is for someone to intimdate Yan-C-Bin and goes from there, but I personally have no intuition about such a thing. All I know is that if the DC is set at 25 or 30 on the basis that Yan-C-Bin is hard or near-impossible to scare then even a high level fighter seems unlikely to have much of a shot at it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7764845, member: 42582"] They're just action declarations. I don't use Martial Practices in my 4e game. (A difference between me and [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION].) My point is that if simpe action declarations resolved as skill checks can do things "comprable to raising the dead" or "opening portals to other planes" then Martial Practices can hardly make martial PCs [I]less[/I] capable. As to your other post: I don't know on what basis you say that I said, in another post, that "ritual caster alone makes casters more effective than martial PC's in 4e." I didn't say that, and don't agree with it. I've posted multiple actual play examples in this thread that show why I don't agree with it. What post are you referring to? And is your view based on your own play experience? As to thinking that the invoker/wizard caster in my game doesn't leverage the rules well, please read [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?342615-PCs-defeat-Miska-but-relinquish-the-Crystal-of-the-Ebon-Flame]these[/url] [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque]two[/url] actual play reports and then tell me what the weakness of play consists in. The explanation for why ritual casting doesn't dominate play in 4e as I experience it is fairly straightforward. Domination in play can take two main forms: providing mechanical solutions to challenges; and shaping the context of play itself, determining what will count and what won't. When resolution is taking place in the context of a skill challenge, a ritual is just another input from one player - even if it succeeds, it grants an automatic success and no more. The player of the martial PC also gets to declare actions. And if those actions are the key ones, that actually shape the outcome, then it is the martial PC who has driven things. The first of the two actual play experiences shows the invoker/wizard taking the lead. He uses rituals as part of that, but not all of it. The second of the two actual play experiences shows the dwarf fighter/cleric taking the lead. He uses Intimidation and fighting to do that. This is another illustration of the significance of closed scene resolution. So is the procedure for setting DCs in 4e and 5e the same, or not? Are the DCs in 5e set "in a purely gamist manner"? I don't really know what "gamist" means here - it seems to mean more than "by the rules" but I"m not sure what that more is - but in any event I think that the systems are quite different. In 4e the fiction tells you whether or not something is feasible - eg we know that the fighter/cleric can sway Yan-C-Bin, or the maruts, by intimidating them because we know that, in the fiction, he is an Eternal Defender who, following Torog's death, has taken on the mantle of god of pain and imprisonment. We then set a DC for that by looking at the chart. In 5e there is no chart but I otherwise have no idea, even after reading all the posts in this thread, how the DC is set. No doubt the GM intuits how hard it is for someone to intimdate Yan-C-Bin and goes from there, but I personally have no intuition about such a thing. All I know is that if the DC is set at 25 or 30 on the basis that Yan-C-Bin is hard or near-impossible to scare then even a high level fighter seems unlikely to have much of a shot at it. [/QUOTE]
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