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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7765327" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Kinda sorta though. Because the DC's are constrained by the mechanics, which in turn are constrained by Bounded Accuracy, the narrative is also bounded by the mechanics. They can't not be. Sure, as DM, I can decide the DC based on my perception of the narrative, but, now, we're right back where we started - the non-caster classes are entirely held hostage by the DM in order to perform any task, while the caster classes can bypass the DM at any point in time, through the use of their resources.</p><p></p><p>It got lost in the scrum several pages ago, but, I made the point that while the 17th level fighter makes 12 attacks in 2 rounds, the 17th level monk can instantly kill 5 targets/short rest. Why can't my "Hawkeye" character EVER shoot that bear through the eye and kill it instantly, but, my monk character can instantly kill a giant with a single hit? </p><p></p><p>See, this is the one place where 4e actually shines. There is very, very little difference in the capabilities in or out of combat between 2 equal level characters. And, the differences that there are between those two characters are almost always down to player choices. No one at the table is more or less held hostage to the DM's whims. That's the whole point of the game. But, 5e went with DM empowerment. Which means that someone at the table had to lose power. And, yup, the casters in 5e are WAY less powerful than in other editions. Absolutely. Much more limited spell lists, much more limited number of spells at higher levels and the spells they do have no longer scale by character level. 5e is very very successful in reining in casters. But, in doing so, they also dramatically lowered the effectiveness of non-casters. I mean, my fighter in 4e, as a 17th level power, can hit everything within reach and push them back. A 17th level 5e fighter cannot do this. Full stop. He could push or he could deal damage. And, if there are more than 6 targets in reach, he can't do it at all.</p><p></p><p>And, as far as the argument, "Well, fighters can do it all day long" goes, so what? Casters get every bit as many skills as non-casters. And, as an added bonus, some of them gain bonuses on their skill checks. Your fighter gains 1/2 proficiency bonus to some skills? That's cute. My cleric gains +1d4 to every skill check all day long and I can grant this bonus to other people too. Congratulations it only took you 5 levels to still be behind what a 1st level cleric can do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7765327, member: 22779"] Kinda sorta though. Because the DC's are constrained by the mechanics, which in turn are constrained by Bounded Accuracy, the narrative is also bounded by the mechanics. They can't not be. Sure, as DM, I can decide the DC based on my perception of the narrative, but, now, we're right back where we started - the non-caster classes are entirely held hostage by the DM in order to perform any task, while the caster classes can bypass the DM at any point in time, through the use of their resources. It got lost in the scrum several pages ago, but, I made the point that while the 17th level fighter makes 12 attacks in 2 rounds, the 17th level monk can instantly kill 5 targets/short rest. Why can't my "Hawkeye" character EVER shoot that bear through the eye and kill it instantly, but, my monk character can instantly kill a giant with a single hit? See, this is the one place where 4e actually shines. There is very, very little difference in the capabilities in or out of combat between 2 equal level characters. And, the differences that there are between those two characters are almost always down to player choices. No one at the table is more or less held hostage to the DM's whims. That's the whole point of the game. But, 5e went with DM empowerment. Which means that someone at the table had to lose power. And, yup, the casters in 5e are WAY less powerful than in other editions. Absolutely. Much more limited spell lists, much more limited number of spells at higher levels and the spells they do have no longer scale by character level. 5e is very very successful in reining in casters. But, in doing so, they also dramatically lowered the effectiveness of non-casters. I mean, my fighter in 4e, as a 17th level power, can hit everything within reach and push them back. A 17th level 5e fighter cannot do this. Full stop. He could push or he could deal damage. And, if there are more than 6 targets in reach, he can't do it at all. And, as far as the argument, "Well, fighters can do it all day long" goes, so what? Casters get every bit as many skills as non-casters. And, as an added bonus, some of them gain bonuses on their skill checks. Your fighter gains 1/2 proficiency bonus to some skills? That's cute. My cleric gains +1d4 to every skill check all day long and I can grant this bonus to other people too. Congratulations it only took you 5 levels to still be behind what a 1st level cleric can do. [/QUOTE]
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