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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7765420" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Here is the problem with all of these things:</p><p></p><p>1) There is implied connotation (and often explicit...you can see it in this thread) when discussing 4e as a boardgame or MMO by people who hate it. "4e is a (shallow) boardgame (where fiction is irrelevant)" and "4e is a (shallow) MMO (where fiction is irrelevant)" were UTTERLY weaponized from (even before) 2008 through the entire Next playtest. They were epithets, no descriptors. It was not just weaponized, but it was an UTTERLY incorrect weaponization. Embarrassingly wrong. It was nothing but an EXTREMELY small part of the complete "scorched earth" operation waged by a small but ridiculously vehement and relentless group of edition warriors that made hobby shops and RPG boards completely insufferable places to partake in during that period (hence why SO many great posters on these boards aren't here anymore). Those people completely made the hobby completely inhospitable and none of them will take responsibility for it. They actually pretend that this didn't take place. Like we all weren't there and didn't go through it together. Its this weird combination of Stepford Wives meets The Matrix meets The Truman Show.</p><p></p><p>2) I've many times called aspects of 4e influenced by Magic the Gathering (systemization and themes). Its easy to see, MtG is the primary WotC offering (dwarfing D&D), and it was well known that members of WotC's MtG group consulted/helped out with the design. </p><p></p><p>Now MtG is a card game which could connote the descriptors "shallow" and "where fiction is irrelevant". However, I can talk about this objectively and silo away those connotations about MtG because I'm just trying to have an interesting conversation and understand the actual design influences. (a) Even though I haven't played it in several years, I'm a fan of 4e and I'm not coming from a position of ignorance while merely trying to weaponize those potential connotations as an epithet. (b) I'm accurately describing the situation from a well-considered, non-compromised position. Its clear that combat roles are kindred spirits with Magic Decks and its plain to see the various design influences if you know both games. </p><p></p><p>(A) is a thing because people who hate something don't get to decide that their targets aren't allowed to take offense to their epithets (which are clearly meant to be injurious rather than descriptive)...IN PARTICULAR if those epithets aren't (b)...and they aren't and never have been. And they were obsessively persistent (disturbingly so) during that aforementioned "scorched earth" campaign during the edition wars. If I was an alien doing a fly-by during that era and this was my lone observation of humanity...I would have pulled a Ripley and nuked_the_entire_site_from_orbit to make sure these insane, petty creatures never get off this blue planet and make a mess of things in the cosmos.</p><p></p><p>3) Finally, Mike Mearls does not have a lot of social/design currency with 4e players (for a myriad of reasons...there are convincing lines of evidence that he wasn't a particular fan of the game - I believe he's spoken of AD&D2e being his favorite D&D line and it should come as no surprise that 5e was basically AD&D 3e...and he clearly didn't understand the concepts as deeply as some would like us to believe with his first offering as an adventure being basically anathema). Of the designers whose work I really appreciate (my Mount Rushmore of living designers would probably be Vincent Baker, Jonathon Harper, Luke Crane, and Jonathon Tweet), Mearls is waaaay down on the totem pole. If I want insight into the design process and inspiration of 4e, I'll take the guy who was primarily responsible for its conception, clearly loved it (he made a game with Tweet that basically pushed the concepts he most wanted out of the system), and moved the most units; Rob Heinsoo.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7765420, member: 6696971"] Here is the problem with all of these things: 1) There is implied connotation (and often explicit...you can see it in this thread) when discussing 4e as a boardgame or MMO by people who hate it. "4e is a (shallow) boardgame (where fiction is irrelevant)" and "4e is a (shallow) MMO (where fiction is irrelevant)" were UTTERLY weaponized from (even before) 2008 through the entire Next playtest. They were epithets, no descriptors. It was not just weaponized, but it was an UTTERLY incorrect weaponization. Embarrassingly wrong. It was nothing but an EXTREMELY small part of the complete "scorched earth" operation waged by a small but ridiculously vehement and relentless group of edition warriors that made hobby shops and RPG boards completely insufferable places to partake in during that period (hence why SO many great posters on these boards aren't here anymore). Those people completely made the hobby completely inhospitable and none of them will take responsibility for it. They actually pretend that this didn't take place. Like we all weren't there and didn't go through it together. Its this weird combination of Stepford Wives meets The Matrix meets The Truman Show. 2) I've many times called aspects of 4e influenced by Magic the Gathering (systemization and themes). Its easy to see, MtG is the primary WotC offering (dwarfing D&D), and it was well known that members of WotC's MtG group consulted/helped out with the design. Now MtG is a card game which could connote the descriptors "shallow" and "where fiction is irrelevant". However, I can talk about this objectively and silo away those connotations about MtG because I'm just trying to have an interesting conversation and understand the actual design influences. (a) Even though I haven't played it in several years, I'm a fan of 4e and I'm not coming from a position of ignorance while merely trying to weaponize those potential connotations as an epithet. (b) I'm accurately describing the situation from a well-considered, non-compromised position. Its clear that combat roles are kindred spirits with Magic Decks and its plain to see the various design influences if you know both games. (A) is a thing because people who hate something don't get to decide that their targets aren't allowed to take offense to their epithets (which are clearly meant to be injurious rather than descriptive)...IN PARTICULAR if those epithets aren't (b)...and they aren't and never have been. And they were obsessively persistent (disturbingly so) during that aforementioned "scorched earth" campaign during the edition wars. If I was an alien doing a fly-by during that era and this was my lone observation of humanity...I would have pulled a Ripley and nuked_the_entire_site_from_orbit to make sure these insane, petty creatures never get off this blue planet and make a mess of things in the cosmos. 3) Finally, Mike Mearls does not have a lot of social/design currency with 4e players (for a myriad of reasons...there are convincing lines of evidence that he wasn't a particular fan of the game - I believe he's spoken of AD&D2e being his favorite D&D line and it should come as no surprise that 5e was basically AD&D 3e...and he clearly didn't understand the concepts as deeply as some would like us to believe with his first offering as an adventure being basically anathema). Of the designers whose work I really appreciate (my Mount Rushmore of living designers would probably be Vincent Baker, Jonathon Harper, Luke Crane, and Jonathon Tweet), Mearls is waaaay down on the totem pole. If I want insight into the design process and inspiration of 4e, I'll take the guy who was primarily responsible for its conception, clearly loved it (he made a game with Tweet that basically pushed the concepts he most wanted out of the system), and moved the most units; Rob Heinsoo. [/QUOTE]
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