I'm sure there are other ways to address it, but I think PF2e addressed it well in their own way- but importantly, I have little practical experience with PF2e. If someone here plays or runs it regularly, it'd be nice to hear from you on this topic!
D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition
- Thread starter THEMNGMNT
- Start date
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
Ding ding ding ding.
We have a winner, folks.
And I can't even derive schadenfreude from it, because I have to endure this reality as much as anyone else does.
Horwath
Legend
one other solution, yes again from 4E,
reliable keyword for spell.
if spell is save or suck, with no effect on successful save, that spell slot or ability usage is not used.
yes there are few effects in 5E that follow this mechanics but not spells.
if we reduce failure rate from 70-80% to 20-30%, then we can talk about not using spell slots if spell is completely resisted.
On higher levels or maybe with a feat, you could be able to cast a cantrips as a same action or maybe as a Bonus action if your Action spell was completely resisted, so you do not feel as completely wasting your turn,
I mean, that cantrips can still miss, hehe.
reliable keyword for spell.
if spell is save or suck, with no effect on successful save, that spell slot or ability usage is not used.
yes there are few effects in 5E that follow this mechanics but not spells.
if we reduce failure rate from 70-80% to 20-30%, then we can talk about not using spell slots if spell is completely resisted.
On higher levels or maybe with a feat, you could be able to cast a cantrips as a same action or maybe as a Bonus action if your Action spell was completely resisted, so you do not feel as completely wasting your turn,
I mean, that cantrips can still miss, hehe.
Cergorach
The Laughing One
Mearls is talking about the 2014 D&D 5e, because he can't be talking about the 2024 version, as he was laid off before that and was working on MtG for years at that point.
And while Mearls might be dismissive of the 'Holy Cows' in D&D and having to resort to 'hacks' to make them work, someone conveniently forgot that their work on 4e (which Mearls also worked on) did away with a lot of D&D 'Holy Cows' and it pretty much destroyed D&D as a brand for 7 years (no matter how mechanically sound the system was)... So yeah, 'Holy Cows' are important for the D&D brand, and more importantly for it's players.
That said, the Legendary and Lair stuff I always found problematic in D&D, 2024 made that a bit better from my perspective. But I still think that the Legendary Resistance stuff is too much of an automatic cancel button. On the other hand, so was the 2014 3rd level Counterspell (the 2024 version changed drastically).
Mearls often sounds like a grumpy retired veteran regarding D&D these days, that wasn't always the case though.
And while Legendary Resistance can be a cancel player action button, it does have advantages. It's fast, it expends player resources, and by itself it's also a resource. And as it only changes a failed save to a successful save, it either cancels effects or mitigates them (like damage). I think people underestimate how important fast combat is. We're noticing that fast combat is more enjoyable for everyone involved and 2024 improves on that dramatically by making ability descriptions more concise and streamlining abilities (multiple different attacks into one). There is no perfect RPG (especially not D&D), as such I prefer a faster flawed D&D then a slower slightly less flawed D&D.
And while Mearls might be dismissive of the 'Holy Cows' in D&D and having to resort to 'hacks' to make them work, someone conveniently forgot that their work on 4e (which Mearls also worked on) did away with a lot of D&D 'Holy Cows' and it pretty much destroyed D&D as a brand for 7 years (no matter how mechanically sound the system was)... So yeah, 'Holy Cows' are important for the D&D brand, and more importantly for it's players.
That said, the Legendary and Lair stuff I always found problematic in D&D, 2024 made that a bit better from my perspective. But I still think that the Legendary Resistance stuff is too much of an automatic cancel button. On the other hand, so was the 2014 3rd level Counterspell (the 2024 version changed drastically).
Mearls often sounds like a grumpy retired veteran regarding D&D these days, that wasn't always the case though.
And while Legendary Resistance can be a cancel player action button, it does have advantages. It's fast, it expends player resources, and by itself it's also a resource. And as it only changes a failed save to a successful save, it either cancels effects or mitigates them (like damage). I think people underestimate how important fast combat is. We're noticing that fast combat is more enjoyable for everyone involved and 2024 improves on that dramatically by making ability descriptions more concise and streamlining abilities (multiple different attacks into one). There is no perfect RPG (especially not D&D), as such I prefer a faster flawed D&D then a slower slightly less flawed D&D.
You know what's funny about 2024 D&D? They used to make Legendary Resistance "cost" HP when doing calculations on the monster's CR. Now they are pretty much free. The difference between a normal and legendary monster is pretty much that a legendary monster has Legendary Resistances and deals 25% more damage.
Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ (He/Him)
What do you mean? The 5.24 DMG doesn't have any CR calculations, so I don't know how you are arriving at that conclusion.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
I think Mearls confused D&D with MTG.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
‘Buckets of hp’ seems off as I have it on good authority that combats are over in 3 rounds. They can’t have too much hp if that’s the case.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
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