D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

Why does the misfire rate double from 5% to 10% here?

For me, if you misfire 5% of the time per attack at one attack per round you should also misfire 5% of the time per attack at 4 attacks per round. Ditto if the misfire rate is 1% or 10% or whatever.

And if this means you're going to misfire more often per round, so what? It's the price you pay for getting to attack more often per round; and nobody complains on the flip side where you also get more criticals per round even though the per-attack odds of critting remain the same.

Again, if you don't want to fumble (or crit) as often then don't attack as often. The per-attack fumble/crit odds never change.

And yes, a fairly common fumble outcome is that you hurt yourself or an ally, usually not for much (most often just d4 damage) but critical fumbles are possible and do occasionally occur.
The multiple attacks pc also gets the benefit being hurt less when one attack misses or they roll low on an attack that adds mods/attrib.

This kind of stuff is one area where 5e fundamentally missed the boat statistically in the way so many things shifted to make sure that PC's making multiple attacks were not impacted more significantly (ie resistance fumbles etc) without considering the benefits of y smaller attacks for X & X+mod+stat each attack vrs fewer larger attacks for a similar value of (Y*X)+nothing or

I'm really tired of hearing from players who are by far well ahead of those they point at about how the person they point at does too much damage for them to keep up with the player who tends to be one of lower damage contributors in aggregate but happens to have a big number with the one attack they make even when that number is lower than the total attack Damage from the finger pointing player complaining
 

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Any use of a weapon or aimed spell has the same chance of fumbling in our system, usually* 1/d20 confirmed by 1/d6. This applies to everyone: PCs, NPCs, monsters, the whole lot.

* - some effects e.g. Bane or anything that gives you a net minus to hit can increase these odds case by case.
The point is that martials are balanced by rolling multiple d20s per turn whereas casters can cast and roll zero d20s and the target is the one who rolls the d20.

Critical hits don't do enough to counter the effects of fumbles.

You'd have to convert to a 4e style where the active player always rolls a d20 in order to make this equal amongst every character. Or default to both a crit table and a fumble table.
 

"Just don't use your class's features while the other classes get to throw out spells all day" is not a good selling point for including fumbles. It just incentivises avoiding rolling dice entirely

There's a reason fumbles have never been part of official D&D rules, what with the turning the fighter-equivalent from 'Competent weapon user' into "bumbling idiot' due to how they're inevitably written
Why are you assuming fumbling only applies to martials?

Casters should be able to fumble or mess up their spells as well.
 

Do you think the most skillful gunslingers to ever live should be misfiring about once every twelve seconds? Does that make any sense? Is that reasonable or realistic or appropriate?
it’s the gun, not the gunslinger, isn’t it? How else do they get hurt by a misfire, did they shoot themselves in the foot?
 

Because there are many PF1e guns which have a higher misfire rate, and if you attempt to use a gun with which you are not proficient, the misfire range increases by +1.
Ah, OK.
Which means that, when you become a more proficient gunslinger, you have more misfires each day, not less.
Depends. Are you merely getting the same aggregate number of attacks in fewer rounds (i.e. going through the same total number of bullets each day)?
Do you think the most skillful gunslingers to ever live should be misfiring about once every twelve seconds? Does that make any sense? Is that reasonable or realistic or appropriate?
If the weapons they're using are unreliable enough to misfire on average once per 20 shots taken, then yes.
People are unlikely to complain about positives, so that entire argument is kind of a non-starter. Like...yes of course.
The argument is valid from the point of view of offsetting benefits/penalties. The negatives come with the positives.
Lanefan, you don't get that choice. If you want to do actual damage, you HAVE to make all your attacks. The game is designed around that. Just as 5th edition is designed around Fighters making four attacks per round at high levels, and Barbarians/Paladins/Rangers making two attacks per round with bonus damage.
Even though I might never choose to exercise that choice, I still have the option.
You...really shouldn't make comments about game systems you don't know.

In PF1e, which is what I explicitly said I was talking about multiple times, when a gunslinger gets a misfire, the weapon gains the Broken condition (-2 to hit and damage, can only crit on 20 regardless of the weapon's normal crit range, only deals 2x damage on a crit regardless of the weapon's usual crit effect), and the misfire range increases by 2 (or 4, for someone not trained with that weapon type). Then guess what? If you misfire again--which is now dramatically more likely because the weapon is Broken--the weapon, as I specifically said, EXPLODES. It deals its normal damage to you and everyone within some range of you, varying based on the weapon (usually a 5' or 10' radius around you).

So, no. It is not "rarely when you crit-fumble you might take d4 damage, or deal that to an ally". It's "between a quarter and a third of the time, you make the weapon an active liability that can hurt your friends and yourself pretty nastily".
That would seem to be a baked-in hazard of the weapon itself; a drawback to counterveil the benefit of being able to do lots of damage at range, thus making Gunslinger an inherently high-risk high-reward class to play.
Does that help make sense of why this is a bad rules design choice? It's not just the disagreement I know you and I have about the whole "random chance" thing. It's the combination of two pretty basic statements: (1) If someone becomes much, much more skilled at doing a particular thing, they should have fewer complications and more great successes, not horrible failures that remain proportionally frequent; and (2) because of the specific way PF1e misfire mechanics work, they are particularly punishing if you attempt to fire a weapon that has already misfired, and when critics pointed out that this would happen, instead of listening, Paizo outright banned some of the people who pointed this out in their public playtest boards.
Outright banning people is stupid overreaction.

That said, if the misfire mechanics were intentionally designed to make Gunslingers and other gun users risky to play (and I've no idea if they were) then Paizo were right to stick with it.
Nobody is coming to take away your personal crit-fumble tables. But crit-fumbles are not a widely-used game design choice for three very good, very clear reasons: players don't particularly like them because the everpresent risk of horrible punishing failure sucks and poisons the enjoyment most players feel for amazing success, an enemy crit-fumbling doesn't compensate for most players' negative feelings about crit-fumbling themselves*, and it is difficult to justify the logic of "your increased skill with firearms never causes any change to your misfire rate, so you will experience more misfires per round specifically because you are better at using guns".

*That is, the bad feels from personally crit-fumbling are, for almost all players, more bad than the good feels from seeing an enemy crit-fumble.
The bolded is, I think, personal projection; here we take fumbling as a simple matter of fact: bad luck is bad luck just like critting is good luck.

Two sessions ago the PCs in my game were on a fishing boat that got attacked by a big ol' sea monster. One of the PCs fumbled and dropped his weapon, no big deal except said PC was flying over open water at the time. Splash. One magic longsword down the drain, and Davy Jones says thanks.

You'd probably be appalled by this. Here, it was just one more event in an adventure that's turned out to be full of them (both good and bad); and by sheer luck that PC had just bought himself a back-up magic weapon while in town.

As for the higher skill should equal fewer fumbles per attack piece: one could argue that at no matter what skill level the PC is always pushing the limits of what he-she can do, leading to occasional mistakes which are mechanically reflected as fumbles.
 

Why are you assuming fumbling only applies to martials?

Casters should be able to fumble or mess up their spells as well.
Because its the fault of fumble rules: They always affect martials more because "roll dice for more attacks" has always been a martial thing. Spellcasters never have situations where they're going to roll multiple dice for a hit, they only worry about damage

If you're targeting what is historically the one thing martials get as a power, they'll be affected. Casters aren't rolling multiple dice for getting spells spell hits off, but fighters are designed to. So inevitably? It always devolves into the spellcasters picking the spells that let them avoid the fumble chance (like, say, fireball) and martials either just eating sand and not getting to enjoy themselves, or bringing around entire golfbags full of weapons because rather than playing a weapon master they're instead playing a fool who can't maintain his weapon and breaks them 1/20 times. Its literately just nerfing martials and doing nothing to spellcasters. Per your example just posted, the martial's gone and lost a valuable item that lets them fight on a better playing field, whereas sweet FA has happened to the casters.

D&D is not designed for fumble rules and they do not work with how the game is made.
 

Because its the fault of fumble rules: They always affect martials more because "roll dice for more attacks" has always been a martial thing. Spellcasters never have situations where they're going to roll multiple dice for a hit, they only worry about damage

If you're targeting what is historically the one thing martials get as a power, they'll be affected. Casters aren't rolling multiple dice for getting spells spell hits off, but fighters are designed to. So inevitably? It always devolves into the spellcasters picking the spells that let them avoid the fumble chance (like, say, fireball) and martials either just eating sand and not getting to enjoy themselves, or bringing around entire golfbags full of weapons because rather than playing a weapon master they're instead playing a fool who can't maintain his weapon and breaks them 1/20 times. Its literately just nerfing martials and doing nothing to spellcasters. Per your example just posted, the martial's gone and lost a valuable item that lets them fight on a better playing field, whereas sweet FA has happened to the casters.

D&D is not designed for fumble rules and they do not work with how the game is made.

Your white room scenario is still a variation of "look at these negatives that are worse than that benefit but ignore that negative and ignore these benefits"
That bold bit makes it look like you are aware of the benefits of multiple attacks and attempting to define the white room to exclude most all of those spells other than scorching ray, but even that contrivance ignores the negative of a single all or nothing attack roll failing. When the one fails it nulls the whole action but a failing attack roll of many still has a chance of doing something productive with the action as the other attacks unfold.
 

If there were rules written to screw casters about as much as fumble rules screw the martials I’d expect them to say something like ‘whenever you cast a spell above 1st roll a d20 no modifiers, for every spell level above 1st there’s a cumulative 5% chance your spell explodes in your face for spell level(d8) damage, capping at a straight 40% chance when casting a 9th level spell.’
 

If there were rules written to screw casters about as much as fumble rules screw the martials I’d expect them to say something like ‘whenever you cast a spell above 1st roll a d20 no modifiers, for every spell level above 1st there’s a cumulative 5% chance your spell explodes in your face for spell level(d8) damage, capping at a straight 40% chance when casting a 9th level spell.’
I'd say that shifting from flat energy resist and DR to 50% pretty squarely falls under that "if". The change erased the downside posed for multiple smaller instances of damage each getting nickeled & dimed while nullifying the benefit of a single big instance powering through a small ding
 

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