D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Scott Christian]

Because they play differently from the majority of players.

I mean... the 2014 designers thought the 2014 Beastmaster ranger and Wot4E monk were good.

They play differently? They literally had an in-house weekly game to test things. And guess what? It worked for them. There are interviews of them saying how much fun this was. As for those classes, that is a different debate.

What I am saying that if the main selling point of 5e was compromised, it might have tanked.

If the math would be starting to jank up at level 2, many people would have not stuck with 5e long and hurt it's sales.

But that is the problem with your claim, the math doesn't jank up. It does for your table. For the majority of tables, it works just fine.

 

[Zardnaar]

and you do not consider the wheels coming off on the highway a design flaw? What about not telling anyone that the car is only semi-safe in the city and closer to a deathtrap on highways?


It's not just boss monsters, high level play is the issue, the issue is at least as much on the character / spell side of things

Bit hyperbolic comparison.

Its not just mechanics i think its more real life.

D&Ds a class based game. It takes time to level up IRL.

Other games dont level up. I wonder if a year or two long game is typical.

I suspect theres more going on. D&Ds a bit more crunch heavy, DM shortage and I think a lot of DMs just burn out regardless of edition by level 7-10.

If youre leveling up every 3 sessions and play bi weekly its around a year of real time to hit level 7/8ish assuming you miss some sessions as well.

If you want to run to hit level 20 run the game yourself seems to shut a few up. Alot don't want to DM full stop let alone to level 20 aka year or two of your life.

Or you level up even faster, or play more often. Playing weekly or multiple sessions a week leads back to real life time commitments.

1. Are you willing to run a game to level 20? If the answer is no go to 2.

2. Are you prepared to pay someone to run to level 20. If the answer is no go to 3.

3. Can you find reliable players/group to go to 20? If not go to 4.

4. Tough poodoo.

 

[mamba]

I suspect theres more going on. D&Ds a bit more crunch heavy, DM shortage and I think a lot of DMs just burn out regardless of edition by level 7-10.

oh, there are several reasons why high level play is rare, sure. That it also is broken / hard to DM in the first place is not helping however

I think games that limit themselves to 10 levels had the right idea, whether those are 1-10 or 5-20 with accelerated progression is up to what you are looking for

 

[Distracted DM]

I feel like there's one simple point that needs to be raised in this thread that somehow hasn't been brought up at all:

Cthulhu by Torchlight.

I feel it's very telling that Mearls wants to criticize 5e control spells, yet a book he helmed has spells that impose crippling effects on enemies—stuff from locking down an enemy's spellcasting, forcing enemies to automatically use weak attacks, outright insta-killing enemies—that completely ignore 5e's balancing mechanics for control spells. There's no saving throw. No form of resistance whatsoever. Cthulhu by Torchlight has a spell that kills literally anything after three turns—there's no way to any monster, even legendary monsters, to resist this effect.

Mike Mearls wants to declare 5e balance bad, yet he's happy to purposefully break the balance of the game to sell his own product.

I think this bears some thought, though I don't agree with your conclusion.

Unfortunately a lot of folk aren't going to have context since they don't have the books, but I'll provide a couple screenshots to help the conversation:

Spoiler

OPTIONAL RULE: LURE OF POWER​

The Mythos offer power at the price of everything else. As an optional rule, when you expend a spell slot to cast a mythos spell, you must make a Wisdom saving throw equal to 15 plus the level of the spell slot expended. On a failed save, you gain the following Passion with a rating of +10.

Power at Any Cost

You have tasted the boundless power the Old Ones offer, and you can't shake this lure. Whenever you cast a spell, you must use one of the spells presented here provided it is appropriate to the situation. If you have the opportunity to acquire and attune to a Mythos Tome, you seek to do so at any cost.
Clutch of Darkness
Level 2 Conjuration
Casting Time: Bonus action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You create a terrible force that slowly crushes the target from the inside. Choose a creature that you can see within range and roll 2d6 and record the total rolled. At the start of each of your turns, roll another 2d6 and add the number rolled to the total.

If the total is greater than the target's Strength, it has Disadvantage on Strength-based attacks.

If the total is greater than the target's Dexterity, its Speed is halved and attack rolls against it have Advantage.

If the total is greater than its current Hit Points, the target immediately implodes and dies.

Dread Curse of Azathoth
Level 7 Evocation
Casting Time: Bonus action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You utter the secret name of Azathoth and doom a creature to an inevitable death unless it breaks the spell. The creature gains a curse point at the end of each of its turns. When the creature gains its third curse point, it dies. It loses all curse points when the spell ends.