D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Zardnaar]

The stats are not the issue, it's the verisimilitude of scaling and what lies inbetween each 'rung' on that ladder.

In other words how do I get from fighting Orcs to fighting Orcus?

But then again, I like Shadowdark, so I am not saying it couldn't be done.

Same as 1E.

 

[Maxperson]

Got it. I was also considering out of combat rp and such, but you focus seems to be streamlining options during combat.

Cool, I understand, thanks!

Right. The undead cleaning and serving crew probably aren't going to be liches and vampires.

 

[pemerton]

4E wasn't really high level play.

<snip>

It was also slow, grindy and boring. Level 21 for your at wills to scale. Yay.

That's not my experience.

It was level 3-10 stretched over 30 levels with some minor bits bolted on. May as well make a 10 level game instead.

Go compare 4E phb level 29 powers to 5E spells around 5th level and you'll see it.

It was high level technically as in you could write a 22 on your character sheet. Level 22 was more like 7 with more hit points and an epic boon.

Advancement in D&D has a significant arithmetic component. It's always possible to compress or expand the arithmetic of levelling into fewer, or a greater number of, chunks ("levels").

But if you're talking in terms of non-mathematical effects that are imagined to occur in the fiction, then what you way is not at all true of 4e as I experienced it. The PCs in the 4e game that I GMed to high level did things that are quintessential of high level D&D. They fought off hordes of demons, they confronted (and in some cases defeated) gods and demon lords, they sealed the Abyss, they liberated the Drow from Lolth and their entrapment beneath the surface of the world, etc.

In bare outline they did the sorts of things that are clearly envisaged as the story/drama that will drive (say) the GDQ modules, or the Bloodstone modules But unlike in AD&D, which doesn't have rules for resolving much beyond a wargame-y skirmish, it actually worked.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's not my experience.

Advancement in D&D has a significant arithmetic component. It's always possible to compress or expand the arithmetic of levelling into fewer, or a greater number of, chunks ("levels").

But if you're talking in terms of non-mathematical effects that are imagined to occur in the fiction, then what you way is not at all true of 4e as I experienced it. The PCs in the 4e game that I GMed to high level did things that are quintessential of high level D&D. They fought off hordes of demons, they confronted (and in some cases defeated) gods and demon lords, they sealed the Abyss, they liberated the Drow from Lolth and their entrapment beneath the surface of the world, etc.

In bare outline they did the sorts of things that are clearly envisaged as the story/drama that will drive (say) the GDQ modules, or the Bloodstone modules But unlike in AD&D, which doesn't have rules for resolving much beyond a wargame-y skirmish, it actually worked.

You can do that at level 8 by rewriting the monsters.

1E did it. The demons etc were weak sauce by modern standards.

Have a look at the lvl 29 powers in 4E. Compare to synaptic static in 5E.

4E youre pretending to play high level. You're really play level 9/10 maybe 11 max on a stretched out treadmill.

They lowered the power level to achieve it and bloated the hp to slow everything down.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Same as 1E.

Yes and other than the anomalous 66hp Lolth you weren't defeating any of them at level 10, So either you allow levelling above 10th (as 1E did) and include the iconic villains/creatures. Or cap levelling at 10 and ignore the iconic villains.

 

[pemerton]

You can do that at level 8 by rewriting the monsters.

As I posted,

Advancement in D&D has a significant arithmetic component. It's always possible to compress or expand the arithmetic of levelling into fewer, or a greater number of, chunks ("levels").

So I'm not sure what point you're intending to make, that you think I'm missing.

1E did it. The demons etc were weak sauce by modern standards.

I'm not sure what "it" means here.

But anyway, an AD&D Type VI demon has AC -2, which is the same as a fighter with Plate +1, a shield +2, and DEX 15. It has an average of 44 hp, which is in the same ballpark as a 6th level fighter with CON 16 (average 45). Its THACO is 12, the same as a 6th level fighter with +3 to hit and using the optional rule for fighter attack progression. It does 2d6 damage on a hit, or possibly more, with its whip and flames - but even the largest one does only 4d6 (average 14) damage with its whip and flames. A fighter with a longsword +2 and +3 from STR is averaging 9.5/11.5 (vs S-M or L) per hit; and at 7th level has 3/2 attacks, which gives damage in the same ballpark as the largest Type VI demon.

So in melee, an AD&D Type VI demon is in the same ballpark as a reasonably equipped 6th or 7th level fighter. It's ability to Cause Fear at will, use Suggestion at will and draw Symbols are a good chunk of the threat that it poses.

A 6th or 7th level fighter in AD&D is clearly not a demigod or even in that ballpark. The MM tells us that a bandit gang is led by a fighter of 8th or higher level. So the natural conclusion is that, in AD&D, a Type VI demon is about as tough as bandit chieftain.

Whereas in 4e D&D, a Balor (Type VI demon) is a 27th level elite. This is in a completely different category from a bandit chieftain: in 4e terms, a bandit chieftain is a Heroic tier, or perhaps a lower Paragon tier, opponent.

Have a look at the lvl 29 powers in 4E. Compare to synaptic static in 5E.

Here is Synaptic Static:

5th-level enchantment

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You choose a point within range and cause psychic energy to explode there. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make an Intelligence saving throw. A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower can’t be affected by this spell. A target takes 8d6 psychic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

After a failed save, a target has muddled thoughts for 1 minute. During that time, it rolls a d6 and subtracts the number rolled from all its attack rolls and ability checks, as well as its Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration. The target can make an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.​

That's fireball-esque damage, combined with a modest debuff.

Here's Word of the Gods, a 29th level Invoker power:

Daily * Charm, Divine, Implement, Psychic

Standard Action, Close blast 5

Target: each enemy in blast

Attack: Wisdom vs Will

Hit: the target is dominated (save ends), Aftereffect 3d6 + WIS psychic damage

Miss: 6d6 + WIS psychic damage​

I don't think Word of the Gods is much like Synaptic Static, either in its fiction or in its play.

Here's a 15the level Wizard spell:

Charm of the Dark Dream

Daily * Arcane, Charm, Enchantment, Implement, Psychic

Standard Action Ranged 5

Target: one creature

Attack: Intelligence vs Will

Hit: 2d6 + INT psychic damage, and the target is dominated (save ends). Until the domination ends, you are removed from play. You can end the domination at the start of your turn. When you return to play, you appear in an unoccupied space within 5 squares of the target.

Miss: Half damage, and you are removed from play until the start of your next turn. When you return to play, you appear in an unoccupied space within 5 squares of the target.​

That's a pretty interesting possession ability. For plainer domination, the Psion has a 15th level daily (Domination) and the Invoker has a 19th level daily (Forced Submission).

4E youre pretending to play high level. You're really play level 9/10 maybe 11 max on a stretched out treadmill.

They lowered the power level to achieve it

I haven't read a huge number of accounts of 9th to 11th level 5e play. But based on what I have read, plus the rules, I don't see that much resemblance to higher level 4e play as I experienced it.

 

[mamba]

I'm highlighting how many Adventure books use these iconic villains front and centre and that capping the game at level 10 effectively takes them out of the game.

since most published adventures end around 11-13, they either can still be used or never could be used in the first place.