D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Upper_Krust]

since most published adventures end around 11-13, they either can still be used or never could be used in the first place.

My point being they still are heavily used by the Marketing Department - which tells us these iconic villains are important draws.

 

[mamba]

My point being they still are heavily used by the Marketing Department - which tells us these iconic villains are important draws.

don’t think I have seen them used anywhere in a long time. Either way, they can continue doing so and can continue not using them in any adventure, just like they have for the past 10 years

No one says these guys cannot be in the MM, maybe they would be slightly weaker in a game that stops at 10th level, but they definitely would not need to be removed if they are as important to marketing as you think they are

 

[Upper_Krust]

Or just makes them considerably more challenging.

You still design for higher levels so DMs have the means to build these high-level villains and NPCs, you just make it clear that PC play isn't expected or intended to get to those levels and that if you try to push play beyond level [10? 12? whatever the soft capstone is] the system will likely fall apart.

That seems to boil down to the age-old argument where the people who never play high-level D&D (because to them its broken in some capacity) want it removed from the game wholesale so 'we can all' concentrate on the low-mid level adventures they want to see - even though I've been told multiple times in this thread virtually every Adventure already stops at Levels 11-13. So that monopoly already exists.

While the people who enjoy high-level play are happy with the existing table scraps (think 5 new CR 20+ monsters in a 500+ monster Monster Manual*) and half-hearted high-level sections in books (think Vecna: Eve of Ruin).

*Which just to note Arch-Hag and Blob of Annihilation were front and centre in the Marketing of the 2024 Monster Manual.

Having played 1E-5E all to max level (and in some cases beyond) I can confirm at least our game has never 'fallen apart'. Though certainly I would admit high-level 5e is trickier to balance because of some wonky official advice around Challenge Ratings.

Would D&D be better as a Level 1-10 game, certainly you could argue it could definitely be simpler (again see Shadowdark), but I don't think it would be as interesting without the potential to pay Orcus a visit and give him a kicking.

 

[Minigiant]

My point being they still are heavily used by the Marketing Department - which tells us these iconic villains are important draws.

But the iconic villains are often dumbed down.

Many of the named power players on D&D would be CR 15+ Threats.

D&D dumbs down elder vampires, liches, and God avatar to let you fight them at level 10.

Like @Incenjucar said, 4e tiers were more 5 levels than 10. So if you count those including the tier 4e skips

1. Lower Novice
2. Upper Novice
3. Lower Heroic
4. Upper Heroic
5. Lower Paragon
6. Upper Paragon
7. Lower Epic
8. Upper Epic

Hot Take: Kingdom level threats are not high level. That mid level.

Really only Tiers 6-8 are high level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

don’t think I have seen them used anywhere in a long time.

Vecna: Eve of Ruin.

...Acererak, Strahd, Demogorgon, Tiamat,

...Tasha, Fizban

Either way, they can continue doing so and can continue not using them in any adventure, just like they have for the past 10 years

Yes, just keep using them on the covers, no one will get suspicious.

No one says these guys cannot be in the MM, maybe they would be slightly weaker in a game that stops at 10th level, but they definitely would not need to be removed if they are as important to marketing as you think they are

I don't have a problem with 'weaker' Demon Princes - I loved AD&D. But the key there was the mortal levels scaled indefinitely (even if the benefits of leveling were largely halted at 10th) to give the illusion of super heroism.

 

[Upper_Krust]

But the iconic villains are often dumbed down.

Many of the named power players on D&D would be CR 15+ Threats.

Which is where verisimiltude gets thrown out the window.

D&D dumbs down elder vampires, liches, and God avatar to let you fight them at level 10.

If they choose the path of stupidity to fight the PCs on their own instead of using the potentially vast resources at their disposal.

Like @Incenjucar said, 4e tiers were more 5 levels than 10. So if you count those including the tier 4e skips

1. Lower Novice
2. Upper Novice
3. Lower Heroic
4. Upper Heroic
5. Lower Paragon
6. Upper Paragon
7. Lower Epic
8. Upper Epic

Hot Take: Kingdom level threats are not high level. That mid level.

Really only Tiers 6-8 are high level.

I don't remember a single Giant or Titan in 4e being a Kingdom threat.

Often in D&D what constitutes a "World threat" or "Multiversal Threat" is simply pompous hyperbole devoid of taking in 'the big picture' - I like to think this is a trick played on mortals by the gods for their amusement.

 

[Minigiant]

Which is where verisimiltude gets thrown out the window

Only due to unwillingness to make it work

If the monster is epic, make it CR 17 or up.

Don't dumb it down so you can put it in a level 1-10 adventure.

If they choose the path of stupidity to fight the PCs on their own instead of using the potentially vast resources at their disposal

No

The strongest vampire in 5e is CR 15.

That's the problem. Elder Vampires should be more powerful.

I don't remember a single Giant or Titan in 4e being a Kingdom threat

Then you forgot. Giants go from level 13 to 24


Storm titans are above level 25.

Often in D&D what constitutes a "World threat" or "Multiversal Threat" is simply pompous hyperbole devoid of taking in 'the big picture' - I like to think this is a trick played on mortals by the gods for their amusement

No. It's not a trick

A street level threat is a threat to a street.
A city level threat is a threat to a city.
A kingdom level threat is a threat to a kingdom.
A world level threat is a threat to a world/plane.

A minor gang boss is just a threat to a street. If the city guard wanted to take him or her out, they could take him out

A major mob boss is a city level threat. It means they threaten a city. A city's power players are threatened by his existence.

The problem lies when someone says the Elder Vampire threatened the country. They can raise and command an army. BUT they are so weak they are obviously local

Dracula controls a country and threatens a continent. If you want to make a monster that is like a Dracula, it should be high level enough to do so or using a McGuffin to elevate itself.

The issue is people lie. If the world is extinct you better be above level 15 and that's the very minimum..

WOTC and many 3PP writers don't know how to write "If we don't stop X, the World as we know it will end" adventures.

Everything beyond the kingdom red level requires whole new style of adventure.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The strongest vampire in 5e is CR 15.

That's the problem. Elder Vampires should be more powerful.

I think it comes down to the setting reality.
So, I have a level cap of 9 for PCs and NPCs. Something extraordinary needs to happen to awaken or empower the individual to go beyond level 9. Now I realise there is nothing in the game that stipulates this, but having level 20 characters casually walking around that can refresh a Wish every 24 hours is just not realistic to me.

If you have level 20's running around in your setting then sure CR's need to be greater. As it is I already buff opponents with a feat, class feature etc for every 4 HD.