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D&D 5E Mike Mearls Twitter Poll: "The druid gets one of the following: Spellcasting | Shapeshifting | Animal companions. Choose."

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Here's the thing that you and the other "Druids should be Spellcasters, first and foremost!" are failing to address for we who do not feel that way. What, if anything, distinguishes "Druid" from just "Nature Priest with specific real-world cultural trappings and practices"?

The Druid as a spellcaster in D&D has been pretty much obsolete since at least 2nd edition AD&D, when "Nature Priest" was a niche opened to clerics via kits and Spheres, and their obsolescence was cemented via the Domains mechanic.

All that defines the "D&D Druid" as being seperate from the Cleric is the fact it has spellcasting magic AND shapeshifting AND an animal companion. Cut it free of everything bar the spellcasting, and you have nothing that convincingly and meaningfully distinguishes it from a Nature Cleric with a larger alternate spell-list- at least, nothing that you have shared so far.

Simply put, appealing to "tradition" has no meaning and is not a convincing argument when the end result of doing so basically portrays the Druid as nothing more than a Captain Ethnic take on the Nature Priest. Especially given arguments like "Nature Clerics can turn undead and Druids shouldn't be able to do that!"

...Excuse me? Servitors of the holy earth mother should not be empowered to put an end to creatures that mock the natural cycles through their very existence? Just... think about that for a minute or two, see if you can't see the problem with it.

Ans the flip side argument would be...YES, they ARE "Nature Priests." That's what they are. What they've always been. A specialized type of cleric, from 1e and 2e and even when they got around to introducing them into BECMI (where the druid's were for wandering Neutral only clerics to morph into) "worshipping nature" priest. That IS what they do.

The fact that, in 5e, Cleric's NOW have a "Nature Domain" does not somehow mean, OH HEY Druids you can leave now. The druids aren't the interloper here. The one muddying the waters and altering the perceptions of the Druid, as an individual class, is the Cleric.

If you have a "problem" distinguishing the Druid class from the Nature Domain Cleric class...then, it seems quite clear, don't use Nature Domain clerics.

"Alter the druid's class to be more unique because now the Nature Domain Cleric took his spellcaster stuff" is a flagrantly flawed premise here.
 

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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Basically, this argument is flowing kind of like, well, since Nature Clerics (with maces and hammers and chainmail and shields) are already the spellcasters of all things Nature...

...make the Druid into the nature equivalent of a Sorcerer, or hell, scrap it as a class entirely and just make it a subclass of the Sorcerer (infused by/descended from "the powers of Nature").

Then it'll be all "unique" and stuff.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Here's the thing that you and the other "Druids should be Spellcasters, first and foremost!" are failing to address for we who do not feel that way. What, if anything, distinguishes "Druid" from just "Nature Priest with specific real-world cultural trappings and practices"?

The Druid as a spellcaster in D&D has been pretty much obsolete since at least 2nd edition AD&D, when "Nature Priest" was a niche opened to clerics via kits and Spheres, and their obsolescence was cemented via the Domains mechanic.

All that defines the "D&D Druid" as being seperate from the Cleric is the fact it has spellcasting magic AND shapeshifting AND an animal companion. Cut it free of everything bar the spellcasting, and you have nothing that convincingly and meaningfully distinguishes it from a Nature Cleric with a larger alternate spell-list- at least, nothing that you have shared so far.

Simply put, appealing to "tradition" has no meaning and is not a convincing argument when the end result of doing so basically portrays the Druid as nothing more than a Captain Ethnic take on the Nature Priest. Especially given arguments like "Nature Clerics can turn undead and Druids shouldn't be able to do that!"

...Excuse me? Servitors of the holy earth mother should not be empowered to put an end to creatures that mock the natural cycles through their very existence? Just... think about that for a minute or two, see if you can't see the problem with it.
So what should you and the other "Druids should be Shapeshifters, first and foremost!" be required to address for those of us who feel differently about the druid? Have I been playing my druids wrong, or I daresay with badwrongfun, if I have deemphasized their shapeshifting in favor of their spellcasting?

What distinguishes a wizard from a sorcerer from a warlock from a bard from any given arcane class here? Don't you think that placing their "distinct thing" in opposition to their spellcasting is absurd? Especially if it meant getting rid of their spellcasting in favor of their "distinct thing"? They all get 9th level arcane spells (in 5e)! You may call that tradition, but it's a tradition that distinguishes between sorcerers, wizards, bards, warlocks, and other arcanists.

I don't think that just because a druid has wild shape as their unique thing means that the druid should be reduced to wild shape any more than a wizard should be reduced to a spellbook without their spells. If anything, if the druid and nature priest are that redundant, then I would say that they should be combined such that their role as a spellcaster is preserved. Or, perhaps more obviously, if the druid and nature priest are really that redundant, then why not remove the nature cleric subclass?

Even apart from wild shape, there are some fairly huge differences between clerics and druids, especially if one looks at the spell list. (And this is ignoring other iconic traditions such as armor and weapon proficiencies.) The nature priest really only gets a small smattering of the spells that makes the druid a druid. What's a druid without Entangle? Does a nature cleric have that spell? Nope. Goodberry? Nope. Faerie Fire? Nope. The nature cleric has a few iconic druid spells, but in order to turn the nature cleric into a druid, you would have to greatly expand the cleric's base or domain spell list. The overall flavor of their respective spell lists suggests that the nature cleric and druid are two entirely different "nature priests" to the point that calling them both "nature priests" may just make them superficial "false friends" instead of archetypal cognates. Sure that's a "larger alternate spell-list," but that's a hefty "larger alternative spell-list" and not some trifling few spells here and there as you so easily dismiss it as being. If you really have to make that much larger of a spell list for the nature cleric (and not the other clerics) to recreate the druid, then that speaks volumes in and of itself. I also like the analogy that someone made earlier of Arcane Cleric : Wizard :: Nature Cleric : Druid.

Although 4E offered a more constrained view of the druid, to borrow someone else's phrasing, it also placed the druid in unique niche apart from the cleric. The cleric was a "divine leader," whereas the druid was a "primal controller." The 4E roles themselves, in some regard, don't matter too much and contribute to that aforementioned "constrained view," but the shift from the "divine" to the "primal" power source for the druid felt like a meaningful shift. And I will admit that despite the switch to 5E (and its restoration of old terms), I still regard the druid's differing emphasis to be "primal" over "divine." I suppose what has been seen can't be unseen. This is what I see as the critical difference between the nature priest and the druid. The nature priest serves nature deities, drawing power from them (or however clerics do). The druid may revere deities, but their power ultimately comes from the primal power of nature itself. Nature clerics represent the aspect of nature as expressed through their deity's portfolio, but druids represent the full primality of nature.
 
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Irennan

Explorer
When I think druid, I immediately think shapeshfting, and magic based on the elements of nature, animal/plant life, or on the moon/sun cycle. Animal companions don't come to mind, although being able to befriend and convince animals to join your cause surely is fitting.
 

bkwrm79

Villager
I would love a class focused on shape-shifting. Druid isn't the best name for such a class, but the twitter poll doesn't seem to allow for that sort of nuance. My preference is a new class without spell slots that's great at changing shapes.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I would love a class focused on shape-shifting. Druid isn't the best name for such a class, but the twitter poll doesn't seem to allow for that sort of nuance. My preference is a new class without spell slots that's great at changing shapes.


If I wanted to have to choose to play only part of what the druid could traditionally do, I'd just play one in 4e.
 
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S

Sunseeker

Guest
A druid without wildshape or animal companions is just a cleric of nature. So, really no need to even go there.
A druid without wildshape or spellcasting is basically a ranger. Got that covered. (sorta)
A druid without spellcasting or animal companions is....not covered by another class.

So reasonably speaking, if we were to have a class that did something that the other classes don't already do, it would IMO need to be a druid that focuses on shapeshifting.

Personally, I think spellcasting, animal companions and shapeshifting is too much for a single class. I often forget or ignore the 2 elements I'm not using for any given druid.
 

Although 4E offered a more constrained view of the druid, to borrow someone else's phrasing, it also placed the druid in unique niche apart from the cleric. The cleric was a "divine leader," whereas the druid was a "primal controller." The 4E roles themselves, in some regard, don't matter too much and contribute to that aforementioned "constrained view," but the shift from the "divine" to the "primal" power source for the druid felt like a meaningful shift. And I will admit that despite the switch to 5E (and its restoration of old terms), I still regard the druid's differing emphasis to be "primal" over "divine." I suppose what has been seen can't be unseen. This is what I see as the critical difference between the nature priest and the druid. The nature priest serves nature deities, drawing power from them (or however clerics do). The druid may revere deities, but their power ultimately comes from the primal power of nature itself. Nature clerics represent the aspect of nature as expressed through their deity's portfolio, but druids represent the full primality of nature.

This is my take. Fourth Edition gave the Primal classes their own unique flavor, as well as a new pantheon of Great Elder Spirits that represented the vague "spirits of nature" mentioned in other editions. I wish they had been carried over from 4E, but I guess only having one true Primal class (Druids) and a handful of Primal-derivative subclasses (like those for the Barbarian and the Paladin) was too little to justify porting over the Great Elder Spirits.

For my personal homebrew setting in 5E I've not only retained the Great Elder Spirits but increased their importance. The nature goddess is also a war goddess who protects the world from outside threats while the Great Elders survey over the world itself. People in cities primarily worship the gods, but the spirits of nature are very important to rural folk.

I personally think there's room for both a Druid and a Shaman, at least. Part of me thinks the Nature Cleric and Oath of Ancients Paladin step too much on the Primal niche (although Paladins no longer being exclusively beholden to gods makes me like them more).
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I would love a class focused on shape-shifting. Druid isn't the best name for such a class, but the twitter poll doesn't seem to allow for that sort of nuance. My preference is a new class without spell slots that's great at changing shapes.

You should check out the EN5ider Patreon. They have a great shapeshifting class in there.
 


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