Min/Max explination

the spirit of the rules

I like this phrase a lot. This, to me, is what starts to separate a min/maxer versus a powergamer. It's also one of the main reasons why I grew tired of the WotC Optimization board. While you can get a lot of info very quickly there, most of the builds would never fly in most campaigns.

You want to use a tripping weapon? Well then you have to have these specific regional FR feats. Oh you aren't playing in the Realms and you're DM won't allow them? Well your character will suck then. :\
 

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Because this debate has come up many times before, I'm going to make a few unqualified statements here without getting too involved - just a few things to keep in mind:

1) Min/maxing and powergaming properly are diametrically opposed to cheating.

2) Min/maxing and powergaming are not diametrically opposed to roleplaying.

To expand slightly: I find combing through supplements looking for cool and powerful combinations to be kind of fun, and rationalizing the end result often gives me cool ideas for a character's history and personality that I would never come up with just for a PHB-only human fighter. And I'd never cheat - min/maxing and powergaming is, by definition, using the rules to your advantage.

And as a closing note, when I DM, I wish my players would spend more time checking out their options and doing a bit of min/maxing. It would show me that some of them are actually involved in the game beyond showing up. :/

--Impeesa--
 

In the following, bear in mind "bang" is defined by the individual. For instance, in a point buy stat situation, one player might go for 16s (since the costs go up above that), while another might go for 18s (for a more focused character archetype). That being said...

A min/maxer wants the most bang for the buck. How do I squeeze the most efficiency out of character creation? This guy grumbles about getting the Holy Avenger when he's not a paladin.

A power gamer wants more bang. How do I get to be strongest/fastest/smartest? This guy takes a level in paladin after he gets the Holy Avenger.

A munchkin wants more bang for more bucks, and he's spending other people's money. This guy brings his old PC to your campaign. This PC is a Chaotic Neutral Drow Paladin/Monk/Ranger/Assassin/SEAL/Green Beret equipped with a +7 Holy Defending Dancing Keen Heat-seeking Laser-guided Vorpal Holy Avenger, +6 Drow Mithral Elven Chain Mail, 17 miscellaneous magic items including a portable hole inside a bag of holding, riding his gold dragon mount and accompanied by a charmed beholder. And that's his mid-level character because, y'know, he doesn't want to show off or anything.
 

Interesting -- I think of myself as roleplaying-oriented, but I'm apparently much more minmaxy than I thought. Here's my philosophy:

- Make a character concept.
- Minmax the heck out of the rules to get the best possible implementation of that character concept.

In another thread awhile back, I talked about having the concept for "A fantastic lock-picker who is renowned for his skill with locks." That's the base concept. Eventually, he'll get hair color and a fun accent and some cute witticisms, but for game purposes, I need to build a character that supports that concept. I need to take skill-boosting feats. And yeah, if a splatbook had a feat that let you pick locks in half the time, I'd totally go for that. (Note: Not sure I'd want to play a character this focused -- spending all my feats on getting really good with locks sounds kind of dull -- but it's a legit concept.)

I have a similar philosophy for power attacks. In real life, if you and your buddy are fighting some big scaly monster, and you see that your buddy's axe got through the scales with an awkward swing but didn't really hurt the thing a ton, you're going to comfortably say, "Alright, time to forego careful measured strikes and flail away." Your character doesn't know that he just watched an attack hit on AC15, and that he can now Power Attack:3 with few consequences. He just knows what he saw. In my mind, that's intelligent in-game knowledge (for average Int and Wis -- I'd play a Low-Int character differently, and a Low-Wis character differently from that. The Low-Wis character is slower to catch on, while the Low-Int character draws less than logical conclusions from watching his friend connect, and probably Power Attacks too much).

At least a few of these situations arise from GM problems, not player problems -- a GM who doesn't describe the situation very well and then gets annoyed when his players compensate for his lack of description by reading what the dice tell them.

GM: You're minmaxing by not using Expertise! I said it was scary! Your character should be using Expertise!

Player: No, you said it was scary, and then I saw that it hit with a roll of 2 -- meaning that its clumsiest, slowest, most awkward strike connected anyway. My best bet isn't to parry and dodge and hope it misses. My best bet is to lunge in desperately and try to hack it to death.

(I played under a GM who, when I, wounded and battered in mid-fight rolled 6 points of damage (the first six points of damage I'd done), described my rapier as stabbing through the monster's chest. I thought, "Hey, by the flavor text, this thing is almost dead," and didn't bother wasting a round on a healing potion. 20 points of damage later, it was still up and fighting. After that fight, I ignored the GM's flavor text, since I knew that he wasn't going to give me the helpful information my warrior would actually see in this fight, and I was stuck with reading the dice and going, "Well, 30 points of damage killed the first monster, and this one looks exactly the same, and I've hit it for 18, so two more good hits ought to do it." If, as a GM, you give bad flavor text, the players have only the dice by which to observe their world.)

There's also the Minmax situation in which the GM accidentally turns the situation into an arms race, providing "challenges" by throwing monsters that are far too powerful at the party -- which makes the party start minmaxing in order to survive, which then frustrates the GM, who feels he has to increase the enemy's power in order to give the party a good fight... and so on.

Not as simple a situation as it would appear on first glance.
 

Doug has it pretty much spot on IMO. Most players do this to small extent - some more than others

An example of minimizing a weakness - multi class casters are generally considered weaker then single class casters. Their weakness is that they have fewer spells, they are less powerful and they have a lower caster level. The practiced spellcaster feat from compete divine raises the caster level and therefore to some extent offsets this weakness. It has to be said that there isn't much 'theme' to this feat and it doesn't really add to a character except in mechanical terms

An example of maximizing a strength - celestial wildshape from book of exalted deeds makes an already decent ability even better by allowing powerful celestial, blink dog and unicorn shapes. This feat however does have a theme and certainly allows lots of roleplaying opportunities if the player wishes to take them.

A good deal of players tend to min/max to simply make their characters stronger or more survivable which is simply a reflection of real life where many people try to be as good as possible at what they do
 

Calling someone a min-maxer or powergamer in a derisive fashion is tantamount to saying "I hate the fact that they know and use the game system better than me".

That's pretty much it.

A powergamer or min-maxer isn't disruptive because they're a powergamer or min-maxer. They're only disruptive when:
a) They're combined with a group who not only don't know and use the rules well, but don't WANT to know and use the rules well

b) The group resents this.

c) They then refuse to play to that groups level, or move on.

In other words: The group are ignorant to the degree of becoming upset that other people aren't, and the powergamer doesn't care.

Which takes two groups of people to accomplish.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've read stories which have gone "X's character is efficient in combat! He's a powergamer and I'm not! I need to kick him from the group!". I've yet to see a flood of stories which go "My character is great, and the rest of the group are dragging me down, what do I do?". To me this says that one side of the arguement are being quite offensive in expressing their views, and I don't think it's powergamers.
 

For a reliable definition of "munchkin" you have to go back to the word's roots. It does come from the Wizard of Oz originally, but it entered gaming with the second generation of players.

See, you had all these older dudes who'd been playing for a while, and they suddenly found themselves dealing with 12 year old players. So, 12 years old = small = "munchkin," after the characters in the movie. While the word was first associated with children players, it soon became associated with people who behaved like children players.

Munchkin means childish and immature. Obsessed with gaining power, attention-grabbing, tendency to ignore the rules when they're inconvenient, and all around annoying are the general traits of a munchkin. Almost all players go through a munchkin stage when they start the hobby -- people who get labeled munchkins are the ones who never grow out of it. What actually counts as munchkin behavior is like the old definition of pornography: "We know it when we see it."

(The word also, for a time, mutated to mean "any style of play of which I, the person using the word in question, dissaprove," but us net.folks quickly realized that was counterproductive and it's mostly stopped being used for that.)

Similarly, "twink" comes from the misunderstanding of a court case in the 80s where, urban legend holds, a dude tried to get off a murder charge with a temporary insanity plea by arguing that he was on a sugar high from eating too many twinkies. This isn't an accurate representation of the case -- he was actually arguing that eating a lot of junk food and generally behaving in a self-destructive manner were indicative of his depression, which was, according to him, a form of temporary insanity (so the twinkies were more a symptom and an warning sign, rather than a cause) -- but the misrepresentation stuck when people talked about it, because "A dude tried to get off murder by blaming a sugar high from eating twinkies!" is the sort of stupid court case that sticks in the mind. Thus, a twink is a player who makes absurd arguments and often browbeats the DM into accepting them -- "Rule X on page XX and rule Y on page YY combined indicate that I have infinite hit points! Really!"

Gaming is like the urban myth about Eskimos having 200 words for snow. We've got a lot of terms that mean almost the same thing, which is "Guy who RPs in a way I think is bad."

Compared to munchkin and twink, the definition of min-maxer is pretty simple.
 

takyris said:
In another thread awhile back, I talked about having the concept for "A fantastic lock-picker who is renowned for his skill with locks." That's the base concept. Eventually, he'll get hair color and a fun accent and some cute witticisms, but for game purposes, I need to build a character that supports that concept. I need to take skill-boosting feats. And yeah, if a splatbook had a feat that let you pick locks in half the time, I'd totally go for that. (Note: Not sure I'd want to play a character this focused -- spending all my feats on getting really good with locks sounds kind of dull -- but it's a legit concept.)
I guess the distinction I would make is between a character that sometimes glories in the spotlight, and a character that hogs the spotlight. The lockpick extraordinaire is a sometimes-glorier: it's not like you're going to get in every fight and say, "Aha! I astound and intimidate the shambling mound by picking this complicated lock in front of it! 45 on my open lock check, suckah!"

The monk example I gave earlier, though, is going to outshine every fighter: except when fighting critters immune to stunning, his first successful hit against every creature will almost certainly kill it. If anyone else is playing a melee monkey, they're going to feel upstaged all the time by this guy. Why even bother fighting, they'll think, when this guy is going to be able to handle everyone anyway?

Severe minmaxers in a group create another similar problem: since not everyone likes doing the minmax polka, characters will end up with very different power levels. As a DM, I can then choose either to tailor encounters for the non-minmaxers (ensuring that the MMers will whomp the opposition without breaking a sweat) or I can tailor them for the MMers (risking slaughtering the Non-MMers).

As I said, a bit of minmaxing is a fun part of the game, but when it goes to extremes, especially when someone finds a way to make their character far more powerful than all the other characters in a majority of scenes, it ends up detracting from the game, IMO.

Daniel
 

And as a closing note, when I DM, I wish my players would spend more time checking out their options and doing a bit of min/maxing. It would show me that some of them are actually involved in the game beyond showing up. :/

I agree. I certianly don't allow everything that's out there but I make it a point to give my players a lot of options. I even list everything on a website I created so they know what's available and what's not. Sometimes I feel like I'm always saying "check this and that out, it might fit your character" or "you know what would be cool for your character concept", etc.

See, you had all these older dudes who'd been playing for a while, and they suddenly found themselves dealing with 12 year old players. So, 12 years old = small = "munchkin," after the characters in the movie. While the word was first associated with children players, it soon became associated with people who behaved like children players.

Nice summation Stephenls. That's an excellent way to define it.

Calling someone a min-maxer or powergamer in a derisive fashion is tantamount to saying "I hate the fact that they know and use the game system better than me".

I'm not sure I would use as strong of a tone but I've certainly seen it happen. Your thought-process may not be a popular one Saeviomagy but I definitely agree. The very fact of "knowing the rules" can be looked upon by some as being a rules lawyer, powergamer, or min/maxer, all of which are negative descriptors in the conext used by the individual in question.
 

In asking other gamers about this topic, one comment was made that I wanted to pose to you all: DnD tends to lead to more min/maxing, yet some rpg's like whitewolf don't.
(whitewolf was the example given in the statement, but later it was explained that other rpg's could have been placed there instead)

I have only played DnD 3.5, so I have no bases to agree or disagree to this statement/comment. I know many of you play many varieties of rpg games and so wondered: do any of you find the above statement to be true also?
 

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