Min/max'ing Rogues!

[moritheil]

One note: since you've got a druid in the party, you have access to lots of animals (summons and companion). Convince the druid to have his critters always grapple. Each combatant in a grapple loses his Dex bonus, meaning you get to sneak attack. Grappling is a great idea for animals since they can't bypass DR without a spell buff--a spell buff that could be better spent on a real party member, or to summon more animals.

But then you wind up having to have lengthy arguments over whether or not your SA applies to the animal when you roll poorly and hit it.

Oh, and Animal Growth can't really be spent on PCs in most groups . . .

 

[IanB]

But then you wind up having to have lengthy arguments over whether or not your SA applies to the animal when you roll poorly and hit it.

Only if you're using a ranged weapon, which is not a popular rogue choice in my experience, OOTS notwithstanding.

 

[Jack Simth]

Wow, I never noticed that! Thanks! I usually just put up a persistent balde for the party rogue, but I also know grease and have been looking for new ways to use it. Also, his nasty full attack plus me sculpting the grease into four cubes should be awesome!

Be warned: Different DM's will interpert it differently. Many will look at it and say "oh, you're balancing whenever you're land-bound in a greased area" and this will really help out the ranged rogue (ideal case for the tactic). Others will limit it to when the critter is actively making a balance check - that is, when moving in the greased area (so basically only grants sneak attack on an AoO caused by movement - nonideal case for the tactic). Know which way your DM will go before investing too heavily in the tactic.

Don't worry about it too much, though - combat-damage-wise, the Rogue is balanced around getting sneak attack on every attack.

Also, as for his ability scores, I'm pretty sure those were just the numbers, to be arranged as he sees fit. I'd go with as many 14's as possible. After 14, the point buy gets more expensive, and Rogues have serious MAD anyway. I'm actually starting to think they have it worse than monks if you want to both do social skills and combat (Of course the standard search, disable, open lock, etc... are expected from the party no matter what direction you want to go).

If you focus your rogue around your stats, almost any set will do. High Dex? Two-weapon fighting and stealth. High Charisma? Social rogue and UMD. High Int? Massive skill monkey. High Strength? Meh, happens. There had to be a bad set in there somewhere. High Con? Everyone loves high Con. You can make an effective rogue with an Int of 6, a Strength of 6, or a Charisma of 6 without too much difficulty. Wisdom is a bit more painful, but only because of the low Will saves to begin with (that, and Spot/Listen - but with a Druid in the party, that shouldn't be an issue). A low Con is a problem for EVERYBODY, and if you multiclass with a few levels of Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric (for the armor proficiency), you can get away with a lower Dex.

It's only when you try to be the everything rogue that you have a case of MAD.

 

[Mistwell]

In my opinion, Wis is often a dump stat or second to dump stat for a Rogue. Magic items and feats can make up for the will save, and you have lots of skill points to make up for the lack of a bonus to the wis skills. It doesn't help any of your key abilities, so I would not rank it high. I would rank Strength higher than Wis for example.

 

[Dheran]

Here are things I recommend against:

1. Using daggers, except with skill tricks. The damage is low, the threat range is mediocre, and the range increment is insufficient.
2. Taking Improved Critical. Get a keen weapon, or have a spellcaster provide Keen Edge periodically.
3. Walking around without a ranged weapon ready to fire. With a good Spot and high DEX the Rogue is unlikely to be surprised, so you really want to maximize your chance to hit for sneak attack damage when an opponent is flat-footed at the start of an encounter.
4. Spending your skill points so you succeed at crucial skills on a rolled 1. Instead you take Skill Mastery at level 10, effectively giving you 9 extra skill points for every skill you master.
5. Taking Combat Expertise. This is a sucky idea for a Rogue, because your BAB isn't high enough.
6. Trying to improve your STR for more damage. You've got much more potential to add damage with sneak attack, so you should optimize sneak attack and make STR your dump stat.
7. Tripping. This requires both STR and extra feats to pull off, things a Rogue doesn't have enough of.
8. Taking Dodge and/or Mobility. The only time I'd do this is if I'm planning to take both Spring Attack and the Shadowdancer PrC -- and even then, I'll get Mobility as an armor enhancement rather than waste a feat.
9. Buying elemental enhancements for your weapon. This piddling extra damage is worth much less than what you'll get with sneak attack, and you don't get to roll sneak attack dice if you don't hit. Get your primary weapon up to +5 as fast as you can afford it.

OK, here are things I favor.

1. Get your initiative high. Improved Initiative is a reasonable choice, but you can also investigate magical ways of getting a futher initiative boost. Flat-footed opponents are your best chance to sneak attack.
2. Take Craven (in Champions of Ruin) to add 1 point per character level to your sneak attack damage. This feat investment keeps paying dividends.
3. Buy the Augment Crystals that let you sneak attack constructs and undead (Magic Item Compendium pages 65-66).
4. Get a flanking partner. You both get +2 to hit, and sneak attack makes a Rogue happy.
5. Mobility -- the real stuff, not that sucky feat -- is good for you. Get your base speed up as high as you can. Use Magic Device can let you cast Alter Self to turn into a Varag (60' base speed and Run as a racial bonus feat), and Expeditious Retreat (giving a further 30' enhancement). Get into flanking position, or out of harm's way, fast!
6. Being unseen is also good for you. Improved Invisibility is the obvious choice, but you can also combine Darkness and Ebon Eyes to the same end, and the combo works against enemies with See Invisibility. If they can't see but you can, you get to sneak attack.
7. If you're going to multiclass, the best payoff for a Rogue is from a single level of Cloistered Cleric: 3 domains with their granted powers, only 2 fewer skill points than a Rogue gets, two good saves that exactly fill in the Rogue's weak spots, and spells!

 

[Darklone]

Dheran has some good points but don't forget that daggers are among the most versatile weapons in the game... and Invisible blade plus Master Thrower is a nice daggerfightercombo.

 

[Raspen]

make a goblin rogue named Chunky Discharge give him a spiked guntlet and the improved lowblow feat

MAX REP DAMAGE!!!

 

[Quartz]

Here's another alternative: monk + rogue. Good saves, high speed, sneak attack + flurry, special abilities.

 

[Darklone]

Here's another alternative: monk + rogue. Good saves, high speed, sneak attack + flurry, special abilities.

And then there's the Ascetic Rogue feat that grants full unarmed strike progression and the most impressive Stunning Fist DC (assuming Ability Focus).

 

[Particle_Man]

You could also do Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X with a feat from Complete Soundrel that lets you count Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of sneak attack.

BAB 19 (that is 4 primary iterative attacks right there!) and Sneak Attack 10d6+int damage, and I think there is an alt feature for Swashbuckler that lets you take advantage of AC while using 2 weapons.