Mind blank vs. see invisibility/true seeing

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: Detect Magic vs. Invisible Opponents

Yes, I understood the limitations before you posted it.

Out of combat, it is not that difficult to use. In combat, it is more problematic, but still not impossible. Especially if the character using Detect Magic is also invisible and is hasted. Then, he could detect and cast a spell at the target in round 3.

And, in this case, it is the out of combat situation which is slightly unbalanced. The high level Invisible Mind Blanked Wizard who snuck into the castle and is spying on the conference (maybe the room is shielded from scrying) is detected by the low level grunt Sorcerer hired to make sure nobody sneaks in.

Seems like a bit of a stretch.

After all, unless the sorceror successfully "hits" the spy three rounds in a row, he notices absolutely nothing useful. To be effective he must continuously concentrate on the exact same area, both tedious and of questionable value. If he sweeps an area he will get hits on other Sorcerors with Detect Magic up, or every single sentry with a potion bottle on his belt. We are talking about a high level campaign after all.

Concentrating for more than 5-10 minutes is unreasonable for reasons of boredom if nothing else. So you are burning through spell.

It may be doable with a couple hundred sorcerors to cycle through. You also need to consider countermeasures like:
(1) Someone summoning a bat to trip the alarm every hour or so to create confusion with the "cry wolf" effect. (2) Hiring a very high level Rogue who doesn't use any magic at all as your spy. (3) Any mobile form of antimagic where the Detect Magic AoE will simply not reach into.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: Detect Magic vs. Invisible Opponents

double post

 

[Slander]

Another score for Mind Blank?

I would like to point out the following quote from the D&D FAQ (pg 43). Before I continue, I realize the text is not relating directly to the topical spells at hand, but their [WotCs] response does use different wording than the Mind Blank spell description.

"... the general rule of D&D favors defense over offense, so Mind Blank's ability to block scrying and all forms of divination trumps discern location's ability ..."

The obvious differense is that the reply here doesn't mention divinations used to gather information ... it flat out says "all forms of divination". Am I being to nit-picky or does this hold water?


Slander

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: Detect Magic vs. Invisible Opponents

Seems like a bit of a stretch.

Does it?

After all, unless the sorceror successfully "hits" the spy three rounds in a row, he notices absolutely nothing useful. To be effective he must continuously concentrate on the exact same area, both tedious and of questionable value. If he sweeps an area he will get hits on other Sorcerors with Detect Magic up, or every single sentry with a potion bottle on his belt. We are talking about a high level campaign after all.

Of course he will. But, the point is that if he is hired to do that, that is what he will do.

Concentrating for more than 5-10 minutes is unreasonable for reasons of boredom if nothing else. So you are burning through spell.

This is questionable. People can easily concentrate on a movie for 2+ straight hours. So, you should be able to get at least a half hour out of a more tedious form of concentration. Tedious does not mean undoable.

(1) Someone summoning a bat to trip the alarm every hour or so to create confusion with the "cry wolf" effect. (2) Hiring a very high level Rogue who doesn't use any magic at all as your spy. (3) Any mobile form of antimagic where the Detect Magic AoE will simply not reach into.

Come on RC. Mobile Anti-Magic? Yes, you could attempt to counter the Detect Magic if you knew that someone would be there doing it. The point is merely that with the narrow interpretation of what Mind Blank stops, such a simple ploy as having a character use Detect Magic could foil an Invisible Mind Blanked creature.

I do not really understand why people think that an 8th level spell should not be capable of stopping 0th and 1st level divination spells. If you just look at the difference in cost of creating a scroll of each, the 8th level Mind Blank scroll costs 240 times as much (1500 GP vs. 6.25 GP) as the 0th level Detect Magic scroll. With the GP conversion system I use, the $625 Detect Magic scroll defeats the $150,000 Mind Blank scroll. Huh?

 

[Voadam]

issue is how far protection extends

The issue is not whether it can stop 0th level spells, it is merely whether as written it stops divinations from detecting things other than the mindblanked caster.

I believe a valid spell could be constructed to protect the character and all his spells and all items on his person from being detected by divinations.

It also seems a reasonable interpretation of the mind blank's personal range to say it covers the character and not spells cast on him.

Under this interpretation of mind blank the spell still serves many divination protection purposes: detecting alignment is stopped, any divination targeting the character is stopped, The character does not show up on scrys of an area, etc.

Conceptually, having a PC spell caster go, "hey guys, I'm detecting magic but I can't pinpoint it, very strange ... " could be neat in a game.

It just shifts tactics that archmages using mind blank must be aware of. He must consider which spells can target his items or his spells.

 

[Voadam]

I now vote that true seeing sees through invisibility spells on MB's characters

Ridley's Cohort said

"I respectfully disagree.

True Seeing specifies it "sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions". I do not consider that as "gathering information", but as ignoring the Invisibility.


The Invisibility spell is not part of the creature. That is why SR is irrelavent to Dispel Magic.

What do you see when you see through an Invisibility? Nothing? Or Something?"

Good point Ridley's Cohort.

I was focusing on the "sees invisibile creatures . . . normally" language which I believe would be blocked.

The "sees through illusions" part does not seem to be limited to figments so it seems it would apply to the glamer of invisibility. If the caster were naturally invisible (not through an illusion) then it would be blocked and I believe if the mindblanked individual were polymorphed he would be protected from having true sight reveal his true form.

 

[Ristamar]

I've emailed the Sage...

Just so everyone knows, I have sent out an email to ol' Skiznip asking about the True Strike ruling, its affect on True Seeing, Detect Magic, and Detect Invisibility, as well as requesting a more comprehensive description/explanation of what the Mind Blank spell does beyond the description given in the PHB.

I also provided links to the recent Mind Blank threads so he could have a better grasp on the questions being raised. Hopefully we'll receive a more detailed (satisfactory?) answer this time around.

 

[IceBear]

Woooooooo

Maybe a definitive answer (though I'm guessing - based on past experiences - it won't matter )

IceBear

 

[Zenon]

Maybe we'll get four words this time....

 

[Ristamar]

Maybe we'll get four words this time....

LOL.

Yeah, he'll simply reply, "j00 guys R 5t00pi|)!" then proceed to blast our ignorant selves with his 133t M@jiXX.