Mind Flayers wimpy!?

[Kyramus]

PHB page 139

Psionic creatures in the MM are assumed to have the Psionic template.

personally the psionic template for the illithid sounds wimpy, but if you wanted a more even match thatn the MM illithid, try it with a psionic template.

I still like the Mindflayer with the appropriate level in psion.

 

[Kyramus]

Assuming the case of removed transparency, I'd reverse it, with the PR being higher than the SR.

I run my game with transparency though, where SR=PR.

Yeah, true enough. Actually, there's this funny little thing about that, and it's kinda off-topic, but oh well.

The Mind Flayer has SR 25. Now, with psionic/magic transparency, spell resistance functions as power resistance as well, protecting you from both. However, if you remove this transparency, you assign PR to creatures with SR, and it's equal to their SR - 10. So, a Mind Flayer would have SR 25 and PR 15.

Here's my question for you: Do you think those should be reversed? I mean, here's a monster that is pretty versed with psionics, yet it has a higher SR than PR. Wierd.

Does anyone have any suggestions on whether or not the mind flayer needs to be altered, or some aspects that need to be closely watched, when you remove the psionic/magic transparency?

EDIT: Also, in a game where true psionics are present, how do you handle the Mind Flayer's Mind Blast ability? Do you treat it as is written in the MM? Or do you treat it as the psionic attack mode in the PsiH?

I've already altered the mindflayer where they have levels in psion= to HD. These are most likely the illithids that are sent out as scouts or emissaries with bodyguards. younger illithids would have lower hd and lower powers.
Leaders would have higher HD with higher powers.

Basically the mindflayer in my game are not just monsters, they are NPC race with classes. their ECL is their level +1.

I would treat the mindblast equal to the psi hand book. It follows the rules of psionics.

 

[Pielorinho]

That's a great tactic, but the CR of 8 doesn't include "dominated mooks", so just having them would up the EL.

Well, that's debatable. A druid's CR assumes they have the animal companions granted by the animal friendship spell, I think; shouldn't an illithid's CR assume they've charmed some mooks?

OTOH, their ability to charm mooks is unlimited, and certainly a mind flayer + 4 hill giants isn't EL 8, given that 4 hill giants by themselves is EL 11 (I think).

I do think that an illithid presents an appropriate challenge to the party if it operates sneakily and indirectly. If it goes against the party up-front, it's a much easier opponent.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

PHB page 139

Psionic creatures in the MM are assumed to have the Psionic template.

personally the psionic template for the illithid sounds wimpy, but if you wanted a more even match thatn the MM illithid, try it with a psionic template.

I can't give the Mind Flayer a template it already has. The actual wording of that page in the PsiH is "These monster are considered to already have the psionic template".

They already have it. It is, however, lacking 2 additional attack modes and 3 defense modes, and I didn't take that into account, so that's a big factor. I need to remember the ** in table 8-1.

 

[kreynolds]

Well, that's debatable. A druid's CR assumes they have the animal companions granted by the animal friendship spell, I think; shouldn't an illithid's CR assume they've charmed some mooks?

Good point. I guess it wouldn't be any different than a Demon and summoned monsters. The extra monsters are already included in the Demon's CR.

Unfortunately, there's no hint nor guide as to what type of "slaves" Mind Flayer's keep around for parties like this. It's only passively mentioned, like it's nothing but flavor text.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, true enough. Actually, there's this funny little thing about that, and it's kinda off-topic, but oh well.

The Mind Flayer has SR 25. Now, with psionic/magic transparency, spell resistance functions as power resistance as well, protecting you from both. However, if you remove this transparency, you assign PR to creatures with SR, and it's equal to their SR - 10. So, a Mind Flayer would have SR 25 and PR 15.

Here's my question for you: Do you think those should be reversed? I mean, here's a monster that is pretty versed with psionics, yet it has a higher SR than PR. Wierd.

Does anyone have any suggestions on whether or not the mind flayer needs to be altered, or some aspects that need to be closely watched, when you remove the psionic/magic transparency?

EDIT: Also, in a game where true psionics are present, how do you handle the Mind Flayer's Mind Blast ability? Do you treat it as is written in the MM? Or do you treat it as the psionic attack mode in the PsiH?

I use a psionics-magic "translucency" system that sort of splits the difference between tranparency and "psionics are different" and it works pretty well. Most of the creatures with PR or SR have the other one at -5 (keep it at -10 and it's almost useless against an appropriate caster level for the CR), but there are some exceptions, like the mind flayer.

I run the mind blast ability pretty much like it says in the PsiHB.

About the playtesting issue- a CR8 creature is roughly as powerful as an 8th-level character (since an 8th-level character is CR8). If a 10th level sorcerer faces off against an 8th-level sorcerer, of course he'll stomp his enemy; I think your situation was analogous.

 

[kreynolds]

I would treat the mindblast equal to the psi hand book.

I did that in one scenario, but the mind flayer was 10 times weaker. No joke. If it can't stun it's vicitims, it's highly unlikely that it will be able to even use it's extract ability, which is a good part of its CR. If it can't stun, and it can't extract, it can only flee. If all it can do is flee, it certainly isn't CR 8, and that leaves little XP, if any at all, to be earned.

It follows the rules of psionics.

Not exactly. In the MM, the saving throw isn't variable (d20 + modifier). In the PsiH, mind blast uses a variable save DC, just like powers.

 

[kreynolds]

About the playtesting issue- a CR8 creature is roughly as powerful as an 8th-level character (since an 8th-level character is CR8). If a 10th level sorcerer faces off against an 8th-level sorcerer, of course he'll stomp his enemy; I think your situation was analogous.

Now put that 10th level sorcerer against a bodak (CR8). The sorcerer is toast.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

We weren't playtesting the CR of the mind flayer, or anything else. We were playtesting psionics.

I understand that. I have playtested CR's for WotC before, though, and my point is simply that when you take the situation far enough away from the standard playtest setup, you have to expect that to introduce a lot more uncertainty into what is already an awfully inexact process. Having a single level 10 psion stomp heck out of a single CR 8 mind flayer (or any other creature) doesn't really prove much of anything one way or the other. The CR estimation could be off, or the challenge could just be more heavily dependent than usual on the composition of the opposing party. Or both.

You have to keep in mind that I run several solo games, and to be honest, I can truly say that this is the first time I've ever run into such a glaring anomaly.

You should expect to run into more, then. For example, the CR of undead, at least at lower levels, is influenced heavily by the assumption that there's a cleric in the party. If you run them against a lone non-cleric (especially against a rogue), be prepared to have them be tougher than expected. Monsters with heavy SR are going to be much tougher for the lone wizard than the lone fighter. And so on.

 

[Kyramus]

extract doesn't require a person to be stunned, that's why the Mind Flayer has Improved Grab. It's a Grapple situation.

each tentacle has it's own attack and can do it's own grapple attack. If the Mind Flayer is lucky, he gets all for grapples and the next round he starts to extract.

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quoted:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the mind flayer must hit a Small to Large creature with its tentacle attack. If it gets a hold, it attaches the tentacle to the opponent’s head. A mind flayer can grab a Huge or larger creature, but only if it can somehow reach the foe’s head. After a successful grab, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent’s turn.

Extract (Ex): A mind flayer that begins its turn with all four tentacles attached and successfully maintains its hold automatically extracts the opponent’s brain, instantly killing that creature.

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The stun if you read carefully is what they use to drag their prey away and feed. meaning tied up and feed at liesure.

It's the difference between "I stab the cow and start to eat the rare meat" and "I drug the cow and bring it to the butcher to get ground beef."