Minimum time between prepping spells

[Quidam]

My group just assumes (much to my delight) that it is nearly impossible to sleep for 8 hours four hours after you've had a full night's rest. You'll only sleep for an hour or two if you go to bed at 6:00PM instead of 9:00.

I thought of that, too, but upon delving deeper into the preparation sections of the PH, I discovered this on p154:

"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."

It then goes on to talk about elves and their lack of need for sleep. So it's not tied to sleep, it's tied to rest.

In fact that's false. It has been debated a long time ago on this messageboard, but it really seems that actually PHB meant that it is exactly the same for all spellcaster who prepare spells.

Yet on page 156 under Time of Day it says:

"A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, divine spellcasters do not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells."

It seems the trade-off is needing rest vs. needing to prep at a particular time of day. To me, this seems to imply that a wizard can prepare at any given time of day, and the limit of what he can prepare is based on Rest and the Recent Casting Limit.

They do, however, use the word daily. The question is: is it an implicit rule, or a manner of speaking, since you generally only have time to prep once a day- what adventurer gets 16 hours of rest- real rest- in a day?

 

[Magic Rub]

And I quote...
emphasis mine

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells. She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level. A wizard must prepare spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying
her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 154). To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, a wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. A wizard’s bonus spells are based on Intelligence (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). The Difficulty Class for saving throws against
wizard spells is 10 + the spell’s level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier. Unlike bards and sorcerers, wizards may know any number of spells (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, page
155).

And I qoute again...
from the top of the wizards "spells per day" chart

Spells per Day

Seems pretty simle folks... why is there a question?

 

[Li Shenron]

"A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, divine spellcasters do not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells."

Yes, sorry I meant Divine & Arcane spellcasters are the same with regard on spells per day preparation options.
This passage instead points out (again) that divine s.c. are not studying/exercising or whatever when preparing their spells, but they need only to pray their gods to receive spellcasting abilities. Therefore they don't really need rest, as they don't need knowledge (in the sense that they don't "learn" spells), just to daily fulfill their deity's wish for worship.
BUT in every practical matter (including the fact that spellcasting in the previous 8 hrs counts against their daily limit) both divine and arcane s.c. prepare spells in exactly the same way!

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Why not simply merge the two options? Here is how see it

A wizard gets a definite amount of spell per day but needs 8 hours of rest (not sleep) to learn new spells.

Wake-up at 7, prepare for one hour. 8am, go adventuring.

At 2pm, you realize that you would need a specific spell that you didn't prepare. No problem! Rest for 8 hours and learn new spells (which should take up to an hour, depending on the number of spells you need to re-learn) but only from slots you didn't use from 8am to 2pm.

If I have 3 first level spells left, that's the number of 'new' spells I can learn.

I typed this fast but I guess you get the point...

How does that sound?

 

[Li Shenron]

At 2pm, you realize that you would need a specific spell that you didn't prepare. No problem! Rest for 8 hours and learn new spells (which should take up to an hour, depending on the number of spells you need to re-learn) but only from slots you didn't use from 8am to 2pm.

What do you mean hear with "slots you didn't use"?

If you mean that e.g. instead of your 3 1st-level spells you prepared only 2 (and left 1 slot blank) in the mprning, you can fill it later in the day but NO ADDITIONAL REST IS REQUIRED. You need only to settle down in a comfortable place, as you did when you prepared the others in the morning, and spend some time: this time is proportionate to how many spells you are preparing (e.g. if you had 6 spells/day in all, it takes now 1 hour/6 = 10min for this delayed spell, there is anyway a minimum of 10min - IIRC). If you have more than 1 slot left blank, you don't even have to fill them all now, you can have as many preparation sessions as you may wish.
The system is such that if you want to collect more info during the day about what you may need, delaying preparation lets you avoid preparing spells you're not going to use, but of course the slots left blank are not usable until you fill them.

If you mean instead to re-fill a slot you have used to prepared a spell which you have later cast, no additional rest will help you regaining the availability of that used slot before the next day.

I hope the explanation is not too messy

 

[MThibault]

I thought of that, too, but upon delving deeper into the preparation sections of the PH, I discovered this on p154:

"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."

It then goes on to talk about elves and their lack of need for sleep. So it's not tied to sleep, it's tied to rest.

Yeah, that's just the Elven Exception. Elves don't actually sleep, but they need their 8 hours of beauty meditation. The spirit of that clause is that "elves can prepare spells even though they don't actually sleep".

I deliberately worded my example to show that just because you are lying in bed does not mean that you are resting. Try it. No books, no headphones, and not in the least bit tired? You will be restlessly bored for over half the time you are lying down.

"You toss and turn, restlessly for another half an hour but can't fall back asleep."

Sure it would be great to have a rule that says "Regardless of sleep or other in-game considerations, a Wizard can only prepare her spells once per calendar day." But then that still leaves the whys and wherefores unanswered: it shifts the problem from not having a hard rule for the situation, to not being able to explain the justification for the rule (which is something that older editions took for granted much more often than the new edition).

Treat sleep and elven "night-zoning" as a type of rest that is different from meditation, a coma or lounging on the sofa and you will never have a problem with multiple rest periods in one day.

It doesn't have to be that complicated, unless you want it to be. I mean you could introduce a Meditation skill that is cross class for everyone but Monks, Clerics and Druids. This skill would allow a check (DC30) to successfully meditate for 8 hours straight that would clear a spellcaster's mind and allow a full-preparation of spells. A check could also be made for a 4 hour meditation (DC25) that occurs at least four hours after any previous rest, sleep or medititation, without any major exertion (combat, research, crafting) in the interim. You cannot take 10 on this skill.

At higher levels this really can be abusive, but if you tend to play low to mid level campaigns it isn't too bad. Make any magic items that give bonuses to this skill twice as expensive as typical skill-bonus items, too.

Personally, I would keep it simple and just stick to the in-game limit that you can only physically enter a sound enough sleep once per day unless you are under the detrimental effects of disease or sleep-deprivation. In the latter case the penalties will be assigned by the DM well in advance of the extra sleep.

Cheers.

 

[Magic Rub]

I still can't see why there is a question about this?

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells. She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level. A wizard must prepare spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying

Seems clear to me. You sleep, or do whatever it is your race does to get full rest for 8 hours (this can only happen once per day), you then study for an hour & you then have your spells for the day. There are no 8hr naps in the afternoon, no 1hr re-study.

 

[rhammer2]

All other spell casters a specifically limited to renewing their spells only once per day. Wizards are the only spell casting class that has the 8 hour rest limit applied, I have always allowed wizards to renew their spells after an 8 hour rest. Just be very strick, they are unable to do anything but sleep or meditate.

I had always been under the impression that in order to prep a new set of spells, a wizard simply needs to rest eight hours. My DM says that you can only prep once a day, but that you need eight hours of rest in order to do it.

Can you wake up in the morning, shoot off all your spells by 10am, then chill (meeting all the req's in the ph) 'til 6pm and then prep a new set?

 

[Magic Rub]

Re: Re: Minimum time between prepping spells

All other spell casters a specifically limited to renewing their spells only once per day. Wizards are the only spell casting class that has the 8 hour rest limit applied, I have always allowed wizards to renew their spells after an 8 hour rest. Just be very strick, they are unable to do anything but sleep or meditate.

 

[Antikinesis]

Re: Re: Minimum time between prepping spells

All other spell casters a specifically limited to renewing their spells only once per day. Wizards are the only spell casting class that has the 8 hour rest limit applied, I have always allowed wizards to renew their spells after an 8 hour rest. Just be very strick, they are unable to do anything but sleep or meditate.

The drawback to this interpretation is spell-casters using a ring of...

Sustenance
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

The potential for abuse is staggering.

-AK