Minimum time between prepping spells

[Magic Rub]

Let me re-cap & dissect

From the wizard class description - under Spells:

...A wizard casts arcane spells. She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level.

That's right it says "is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day".

Need more proof? Here you go...

From the wizard class description - under Spells:

...A wizard must prepare spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook...

Yes that's right it says "a good night’s sleep", & I know or an "equivalent". Regardless this type of rest can only happen once per day as MThibaut's post has already explained.

FROM PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS:

Before setting out on an adventure with her companions, Mialee (at 1st level) pores over her spellbook and prepares two 1st-level spells (one for being a 1st-level wizard and an additional one as her 1st-level bonus spell for Intelligence 15) and three 0-level spells. (Arcane spellcasters often call their 0-level spells "cantrips.") From the spells in her spellbook, she chooses charm person, sleep, detect magic (twice), and light. While traveling, she and her party are attacked
by gnoll raiders, and she casts her sleep spell. After she and her companions have dispatched the gnolls, she casts detect magic to see whether any of the gnolls’ items are enchanted. (They’re not.) The party then camps for the night in the wilderness. Come morning, Mialee can once again prepare spells from her spellbook.

This "flavour" text, if yo would like to think about it that way, Explains quite clearly how the "spells per day" system is suppose to work. Use all your spells, suffer for the rest of the day without if you used them all, sleep for the night, get up the next morning after a night of rest study & do it all again. not use all your spells, rest for 8 hours, restudy, use all your spells, rest for 8 hours, restudy, use all your spells... ect. ect.

...further FROM PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS:

She already has charm person, detect magic (once), and light prepared from the day before. She chooses to abandon her light spell and then prepare sleep, detect magic, and ghost sound. It takes her a little over half an hour to prepare these spells because they represent a little over half of her daily capacity. A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast (see Table 3–20: The Wizard, page 52). A wizard’s high Intelligence score (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8) might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. Preparing arcane spells is an arduous mental task. To do so, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 plus the spell’s level.

Holy! Would you look at that... "A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast" probably per the "Spells per day" list.

"A wizard’s high Intelligence score (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8) might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit." This would mean that there is a sum total maximum number of spells you can have per day... Period. Not to be confused with what some people think would be "maximum spell per ever 8 - 9 ish hours".

Rest:

To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must have a clear mind. To clear her mind, the wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

"The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from... mental task during the rest period"

MThibaut's post sums this up nicely "I deliberately worded my example to show that just because you are lying in bed does not mean that you are resting. Try it. No books, no headphones, and not in the least bit tired? You will be restlessly bored for over half the time you are lying down."

...further from Rest:

If the wizard’s rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and the wizard must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elven wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies (so they could trance for 4 hours and rest for 4 hours and then prepare spells).

I've always thought that in the case of elven mages, they simply extend their trance / meditation. to a full 8 hours.

from Spell Preparation Time:

After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If the character wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

"After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If the character wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity..." I would think this would imply that their is a fixed daily limit as per the "Spells per day" chart.

from Spell Selection and Preparation:

Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used..

"had prepared from the previous day" Doesn't this imply that you can only prepare spells once per day to the maximum of your alloted spells as per the spells per day list?

further from Spell Selection and Preparation:

...When preparing spells for the day, the wizard can leave some spell slots open. Later during that day, the wizard can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, a wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

If you can leave slots open? Why would you do that if you could restudy all your spells more then once in a day? Because you can't drop & restudy all your spells that's why... "She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime.That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest." a mind fresh from rest... have you ever slept to much or sat around, resting or sleeping, for 8 hours after having had a full nights sleep. You do not feel FRESH in mind, or body. You feel ill, generally with a head ache, groggy & slow.


Sorry if I came across sarcastically in this post, it was unintentional. I just think that it is abundantly clear that Wizards (as with all spell casters) do indeed have a maximum number of spells per day cap as listed in the chart in the wizards class section of the PHB (modified by the bonus spells per day list of course)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Magic rub - hooray for subjective interpretations of the meaning of a word!

Your entire argument hinges on the meaning of the word 'day' as meaning a 24 hour(presumably) period.

Note however that the book (outside of that section you already discounted - the one which specifies 8 hours of restful meditation at any time) says you need to get a good 'night' of sleep.

So nocturnal spellcasters are just plumb out of luck! They're not allowed to get spells back during the day!

Not to mention that if a day is specified as a rigid 24 hours, our problems of interpretation still aren't over. Is that 24 hours starting at midnight? 7:00am? Whenever the wizard last started preparing? When he finished preparing? When he started resting perhaps? Any and all of these have a problem - namely that if the wizard's sleep/wake/cast/sleep cycle is interrupted or shifted, the wizard suddenly and inexplicably becomes unable to memorise his spells.

Quite frankly, I'd much prefer to let wizards rest and prepare whenever they want to. Is it really going to make a DM's life more difficult? Are the rest of the party really going to wait 8 hours after every encounter? Explain to me how it differs from the party just hanging around for 24 hours after each encounter?

 

[Quidam]

I have my doubts for all the reasons Saeviomagy mentioned and the fact that no explicit mention is made of the daily requirement in game rule terms. They go into quite a bit of detail about rest needed- not sleep, just rest, doesn't matter if you're bored- and about the recent casting limit, but no mention is made about time of day. "You have to wait until after midnight before you can prepare again" or "You have to wait until twenty four hours have passed since you last prepped" would have done it. But the only mention they make is the eight-hour recent casting limit. I've made mention of the fact that divine spellcasters have this time of day issue clearly spelled out in contrast to the arcane.

Yet they say "Spells per Day". If the rules are meant to be interpreted differently, how would they say it? 90% of the time your Spell Capacity is what you're going to have access to during any given adventuring day. Also, since for the divine it really is spells per day, so for consistency why not call all the charts the same thing?

All I'm saying is that I'm looking for an explicit rule, rather than one inferred.

 

[Magic Rub]

Magic rub - hooray for subjective interpretations of the meaning of a word!.

What exactly does day mean to you?
A doctor tells you to take 1 pill per day, no more no less or you'll die. Are you going to take one every 8 hours? Please explain.

Your entire argument hinges on the meaning of the word 'day' as meaning a 24 hour(presumably) period.

Note however that the book (outside of that section you already discounted - the one which specifies 8 hours of restful meditation at any time) says you need to get a good 'night' of sleep.

So nocturnal spellcasters are just plumb out of luck! They're not allowed to get spells back during the day!

Not to mention that if a day is specified as a rigid 24 hours, our problems of interpretation still aren't over. Is that 24 hours starting at midnight? 7:00am? Whenever the wizard last started preparing? When he finished preparing? When he started resting perhaps? Any and all of these have a problem - namely that if the wizard's sleep/wake/cast/sleep cycle is interrupted or shifted, the wizard suddenly and inexplicably becomes unable to memorise his spells.!.

I don't mean to be rude here... but are you smoking crack?!?

I don't care what time of day... (day being a generic term to describe the length of TIME it takes a planet to make a full revolution) ...a caster prepares his (or her) spells, or what time of day... (see my afore noted description of what a day is) ...that caster rests. (& by rest I mean sleep or meditate, you get the point I hope). Night is a suggestive/relative term. It's all relative to specific casters daily activity cycles. I don't care how you play, I'm simply clarifying a rule that does exist, in regards to this post...

I had always been under the impression that in order to prep a new set of spells, a wizard simply needs to rest eight hours. My DM says that you can only prep once a day, but that you need eight hours of rest in order to do it.

As I've explained as per my interpretation of the rules. Yes I think your DM is correct

Can you wake up in the morning, shoot off all your spells by 10am, then chill (meeting all the req's in the ph) 'til 6pm and then prep a new set?

As per my interpretation of the rules (which I think are quite clear on this issue). No you may not prepare your spells again at 6pm per the above example.

Quite frankly, I'd much prefer to let wizards rest and prepare whenever they want to. Is it really going to make a DM's life more difficult? Are the rest of the party really going to wait 8 hours after every encounter? Explain to me how it differs from the party just hanging around for 24 hours after each encounter?

Do whatever you want to Saeviomagy, I really don't care. I simply gave my interpretation of the rules. I guess I'm wrong, "about a great many things" (Shameless star wars quote).

In fact some of the correct answers seem to be...
1. A day is actually however long you want it to be.
2. The fact that you can leave spell slots open & fill them later in the "day" is a useless ability, something stupid the game designers just put in the game for kicks (what a bunch of morons those designers are).
3. 3rd Edition is a very cryptic system with hidden meaning behind everything.
4. It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest several times in a day. That is unless of course you interpret the rules taking point #1 in to account, then this point should read It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest over the course of several days.
5. Mages are really the most uber powerful beings in the game because they can (re)prepare their entire compliment of spells as often as they want to. It's one of the hidden secretes as noted in point #3. To hell with game balance!




Well that's about enough outta me for now...

 

[Quidam]

What exactly does day mean to you?
A doctor tells you to take 1 pill per day, no more no less or you'll die. Are you going to take one every 8 hours? Please explain.



I don't mean to be rude here... but are you smoking crack?!?

Twice now while being sarcastic and rude, you've said you didn't mean to be that way. If even your own perceptions indicate your words might be interpreted in a less-than-kind manner, perhaps they are worth a second glance before hitting Submit.

What does a day mean to me? Well, if my employer says he wants me to work a day, it means eight hours. A day could also be interpreted as the hours the sun's light is visible.

In fact some of the correct answers seem to be...
1. A day is actually however long you want it to be.

Sometimes I think this "" is overused.

A day is as long as it is. What you mean by the word "day" can be variable.

2. The fact that you can leave spell slots open & fill them later in the "day" is a useless ability, something stupid the game designers just put in the game for kicks (what a bunch of morons those designers are).

Leaving a slot open to prepare later affords the discriminating wizard the opportunity to prepare a spell in fifteen minutes- rather than the nine hours (8 rest, 1 prep) required to do so otherwise.

3. 3rd Edition is a very cryptic system with hidden meaning behind everything.

Actually, I've found it to quite explicit in its explanation of the rules, and it's precisely this facet of the Player's Handbook that leads me to believe that, since there is no explicit mention of a 24 period in the rules for arcane preparation, the only requirements for preparing arcane spells are the ones found in the relevant section.

4. It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest several times in a day. That is unless of course you interpret the rules taking point #1 in to account, then this point should read It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest over the course of several days.

The requirement is rest. The section's heading even says, "Rest". And in that section, as we've described, it mentions that sleep might not always be possible. It then lists elves as an example- but as an example. Another reason sleep might be impossible is because you're just not tired. Nowhere does it say "sleep equivalent". The words are "restful calm".

5. Mages are really the most uber powerful beings in the game because they can (re)prepare their entire compliment of spells as often as they want to. It's one of the hidden secretes as noted in point #3. To hell with game balance!

"As often as they want to". Sure. Just as long as they haven't used the relevant slot within the past eight hours and that they've had an equivalent time of restful composure. And as long as they've got their spellbooks. And as long as they've got a environment suitable for preparation. And as long as they've got an hour to do it in. Just as long as those conditions are met, (ie the only conditions listed in the arcane spell preparation section of the ph) a wizard can indeed prepare spells "as often as they want to".

As has been mentioned- what's the difference between the party hanging about for eight hours and the party hanging about for twenty-four? I can't see this as being overbalancing for the wizard who, IMHO, has already been hosed somewhat by having to sink 200gp/spell level into his spellbook in scribing costs. If EVERY wizard sees the Blessed Book as a must have, either the item's too powerful, or it's filling a lack that was, for some reason, designed into the new wizard class.

But that's for another thread which I won't start since the subject's already been beaten pulpy on these boards.

Please, this is not trollbait, I've tried to counter sarcasm with civility. Your point has been made- the word "day" does appear in many of the germaine sections of the PH. No argument on that has thusfar been made. If you can point me in the direction of an explicit rule that underscores your interpretation, please, by all means.

 

[Saeviomagy]

What exactly does day mean to you?
A doctor tells you to take 1 pill per day, no more no less or you'll die. Are you going to take one every 8 hours? Please explain.

If a doctor told me that, I'd ask him to be more specific - my life's on the line here. The last medicine bottle I read had 'every 24 hours' not 'every day'

But that is neither here nor there. If someone told me to take something three times a day, I would of course infer the precise meaning of the word day from the context.

Now, lets all try to infer the precise meaning of the word 'day' which is required from within a context that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't exist, that of being a spell caster.

Gee. Guess we can't.

I don't mean to be rude here... but are you smoking crack?!?

I don't care what time of day... (day being a generic term to describe the length of TIME it takes a planet to make a full revolution) ...a caster prepares his (or her) spells, or what time of day... (see my afore noted description of what a day is) ...that caster rests. (& by rest I mean sleep or meditate, you get the point I hope). Night is a suggestive/relative term. It's all relative to specific casters daily activity cycles. I don't care how you play, I'm simply clarifying a rule that does exist, in regards to this post...

Ahh, so you have picked a certain meaning. In this case, it's one which is not even slightly subjective. It's going to be a rigid period of time (barring cosmic forces stopping the planet spinning, or a world where the planet is flat, for instance).

I could get into even more complex arguments (like whether your spells per day is going to be calculated as a windowed average for instance), but for the sake of your obviously over-stressed self, I won't.

Do whatever you want to Saeviomagy, I really don't care. I simply gave my interpretation of the rules.

No, you didn't. You stated it multiple times. Then, when people posted other points of view, you stated it a few more times in more and more adversarial ways. Like it or not, you are arguing your point, and it's quite clear that you do care.

I guess I'm wrong, "about a great many things" (Shameless star wars quote).

In fact some of the correct answers seem to be...
1. A day is actually however long you want it to be.

No, it's however long you infer it to be from the context used. In this case, we really don't have much in the way of context.

2. The fact that you can leave spell slots open & fill them later in the "day" is a useless ability, something stupid the game designers just put in the game for kicks (what a bunch of morons those designers are).

Not any more than disallowing people from memorising spells after 8 hours of rest is a useless rule when people can just wait the full 24 hrs anyway.

3. 3rd Edition is a very cryptic system with hidden meaning behind everything.

Just like every other significant literary work ever produced. Ever wondered why legal documents are so complex? D&D in general is quite clear on issues. When people start producing rules out of interpretations of quite vague words, that's when the problems occur. (ie - 'spells may be freely scribed'...)

4. It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest several times in a day. That is unless of course you interpret the rules taking point #1 in to account, then this point should read It is possible to achieve 8hrs of "Sleep" equivalent rest over the course of several days.

As has been said previously - the term is rest, and the book specifically says that they don't have to slumber during this period of time, just refrain from demanding physical or mental activity. I'm sure that a great many wage-slaves around the world would fulfill this requirement twice a day on a regular basis were it not for the fact that they have to talk to their coworkers on occasion.

5. Mages are really the most uber powerful beings in the game because they can (re)prepare their entire compliment of spells as often as they want to. It's one of the hidden secretes as noted in point #3. To hell with game balance!

Oh my god! And that means that elf wizards must be the most uber-powerful beings in the entire universe because they live for thousands of years! Why play anything else!

Reason: The objective time for a character is almost immaterial in the context of the game. If the party waits around for the wizard to spend 8 hours recharging spells, that's the same problem as if the party waits 24 hours for the cleric to do the same, or for the elf to spend 500 years crafting swords. It's not going to happen much in a session, and the fact that it potentially can happen really doesn't matter.

 

[Magic Rub]

Saeviomagy, & Quidam FYI that list of numbered points I made was VERY! sarcastic, I didn't think the two of you would take the time to RSVP to it. Thanks, but there was no need .

Well guys it's been fun reading your replies and thoughts on this matter. Now it seems that nothing short of an "Official letter from WotC D&D design dept". will make any of us happy so this is pretty much over.

Saeviomagy, you have fun playing the way you do. In the end if all spell casters (as well as NPC's) in your campaign play by the 8hr day rule then all is good.

Quidam, seems there will be no official answer for you. You're stuck playing the way your DM wants to. But again as I've said to Saeviomagy, in the end if all spell casters (as well as NPC's) in your campaign play by the same rule then there is no need to worry about it.