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Message: <blockquote data-quote="robertliguori" data-source="post: 4215354" data-attributes="member: 47776">Point the first: elements that exist within the gameworld and are accessable and modifyable aren't metagame elements; they're game elements.  HP can be used as an importance flag to the GM, but in addition to serving such a task, they also track an in-game element, which represents how hard it is to break a person or object with damage.Now, you're welcome to simply ignore this set of rules, and substitute the 'hit points only apply to attacks from players'.  However, inconsistencies between what the players do and what happens externally in the world will be rapidly noted.  Take, for example, a giant knocking down a castle door the PCs are defending.  If the PCs have traded blows with a comparable giant before, and know how hard it hits, then they should have an expectation that blow from giant can destroy big door, and if they can replicate blow from giant, they can destroy big doors themselves.  So, what happens when the GMs narrative hinges on the players being unable to destroy the door, then the PCs have an expectation that they should be able to and some of the players decide that the epic challenge against the enemy stronghold should be more of a showing-off-exercise?  The GM can say "Sorry, I intended for the stronghold to be more of a challenge, so you can't do that.  You must struggle against great odds to gain entrance.  Nothing else will work."  This will often get you upset players.  You can cheat, and simply prevent effects that should allow entry from succeeding without explicitly stating what you're doing; unless you have absolutely wonderful justifications on-hand, this will be even more annoying than the first case.  Physical durability is a property of creatures and objects in the world; treating PCs as a special case and otherwise winging it according to story needs can be consistent, but why bother with the headaches?  Simply assume that the numbers are descriptive, examine them according to the situation, and if they are not to your liking, change the situation ("This wall is too durable/fragile.  Now, instead of it's given description, it's old and crumbling/hewn of great blocks of stone, and probably reinforced underneath.")OK.  Let's talk about that thematically interesting story.  One of the constant features of D&D up until 4E has been the advancement of characters from the level of just-above-average to superhuman levels of competence and ability, driven not by their breeding, or because they were chosen by the gods, but because those characters chose to set out and have adventures (and didn't die of adventuring hazards).  The suggestion that any turnip-farmer or street urchin could take up study of the sword or discover a previously-unknown talent for sorcery and having the theoretical possibility of propelling themselves to grand champion or archmage status is a thematic statement.  Minions flatly contradict this statement; a universe with minions is a universe in which certain characters exist only to provide a momentary speedbump for other, more important characters.  Moreover, the specific implementation of minions in 4E only produces acceptable narrative results if the characters are prevented from thinking too hard about how the minions interact with the world, and as far as I'm concerned, stories that rely on characters not drawing logical conclusions (when it is appropriate for them to draw said conclusions) are like games that rely on fake difficulty."There is a world.  Elements in the world act in consistent ways.  Characters that act on their perception of how the world is (or should be) contrary to how the world actually works tend to get smacked down hard.  Characters that take the time to understand the world can often leverage that understanding into power." is a theme.  However, just as heroism in the face of adversity requires adversity in order to be explored, the above theme requires a consistent world, with well-defined consequences for various choices.I'd personally say that any game based on thematic interaction that didn't include the above theme is not a game I'd personally have any interest in.  Others' mileage may vary, of course.</blockquote>

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