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Minion Fist Fights
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<blockquote data-quote="Storm-Bringer" data-source="post: 4238118" data-attributes="member: 57832"><p><span style="font-size: 9px">Before I begin, don't take any of this as applying to you personally. I don't know if you hold any of the views I refer to. Most of it is general argument using your points as a springboard.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that is backwards. From the first information about Golden Wyverns, the proffered solution was always "change/houserule it".*</p><p></p><p></p><p>Conversely, taking out at-will powers from 3.x? Astoundingly easy. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>But the point is this: You claim taking out magical weapon bonuses from 3.x is very difficult. Except, the article previews state you can do this in 4e by giving players a boost to the attack every few levels. Well, again, this isn't unique to 4e. Do the same thing in 3.x, and miracle of miracles, <em>you get the same outcome</em>.</p><p></p><p>There were no minions in 3.x <em>because nobody needed them</em>. Those that did had a system in place. As I, and others, have demonstrated, you can drop a 3.x monster to 1hp, quarter the CR and amazingly, you have a 4e style minion.</p><p></p><p>I haven't had the time to scour the forums, but here is what I am getting at: There was no outcry for the things 4e is 'fixing' until the previews at the first of the year. For example, with all the open content, and the millions of players out there, I would have expected dozens of systems for creating minions/mooks in D&D. There were what, two? Three? Where was the clamour for 'easily dispatched but still dangerous monsters'? Where are the endless flamewars over diagonal movement? Why were most of these things unheard of until recently?</p><p></p><p>I contend that nearly everything that 4e promises to improve on is based almost entirely on fictitious claims about 3.x.</p><p></p><p></p><p>How is "You roll a lot of dice and the end result - you win" any less obvious in 4e? Minions have one hit point, but otherwise, the same stats as a similarly leveled monster. It's the exact same in 3.x, when you drop a monster down to 1hp. They still have a good chance to injure the characters, and they go down in one hit. In a previous post, I listed a statblock for an Ogre Mage minion. 1hp, 2CR, otherwise, the same as any other Ogre Mage. How is that different than 4e?</p><p></p><p>Additionally, you contradict yourself. In the 3.x example, you list "while the quick way, a area effect spell, can hurt you in a later encounter that day" as a detriment, but in 4e, "you actually risk death or at least serious resource expenditure" as a benefit. If resource expenditure is a detriment, it is a detriment in both. As well, if it is a benefit, it is a benefit for both.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is excellent advice for any game. </p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, minions undermine that idea. You aren't outsmarting or outfighting them. They aren't individually a threat, because they are too fragile. They are paper targets. They are training wheels. They are toddlers with foam bats. Mechanically, they are no different than Wandering Damage. They don't even have a mechanical damage threshold to surpass, just a simple attack roll. I don't see how to derive a sense of accomplishment from rolling 12 or better on a d20. It's not like everyone has to work together to overcome them. Everyone will put one down per hit. In fact, it discourages teamwork, because concentrating more than one person on a minion is a terrible tactic. The Wizard will plink at least one per round with Magic Missile. The Eldarin Rogue will drop one, teleport and drop another. Finish off the minions, take your healing surges and get to the real fight. I can't think of much that is less tactically interesting, or has a greater sense of 'obligatory fight scene'.</p><p></p><p>I have heard theories that the new edition aims to challenge the character and not the player, where previous editions were the opposite. I don't see how minions even really challenge the characters.</p><p></p><p></p><p>*<span style="font-size: 9px">Which is problematic when fluff gets entangled in the rules. I can give everyone a static +1 to saves every five levels, and the only thing it skews is a bit of math at higher levels. But if I don't want tieflings to have such goofy names, or hail from the forgotten empire... I'm kind of stuck, because new players to my table will have expectations for tieflings.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Storm-Bringer, post: 4238118, member: 57832"] [size=1]Before I begin, don't take any of this as applying to you personally. I don't know if you hold any of the views I refer to. Most of it is general argument using your points as a springboard.[/size] Except that is backwards. From the first information about Golden Wyverns, the proffered solution was always "change/houserule it".* Conversely, taking out at-will powers from 3.x? Astoundingly easy. ;) But the point is this: You claim taking out magical weapon bonuses from 3.x is very difficult. Except, the article previews state you can do this in 4e by giving players a boost to the attack every few levels. Well, again, this isn't unique to 4e. Do the same thing in 3.x, and miracle of miracles, [i]you get the same outcome[/i]. There were no minions in 3.x [i]because nobody needed them[/i]. Those that did had a system in place. As I, and others, have demonstrated, you can drop a 3.x monster to 1hp, quarter the CR and amazingly, you have a 4e style minion. I haven't had the time to scour the forums, but here is what I am getting at: There was no outcry for the things 4e is 'fixing' until the previews at the first of the year. For example, with all the open content, and the millions of players out there, I would have expected dozens of systems for creating minions/mooks in D&D. There were what, two? Three? Where was the clamour for 'easily dispatched but still dangerous monsters'? Where are the endless flamewars over diagonal movement? Why were most of these things unheard of until recently? I contend that nearly everything that 4e promises to improve on is based almost entirely on fictitious claims about 3.x. How is "You roll a lot of dice and the end result - you win" any less obvious in 4e? Minions have one hit point, but otherwise, the same stats as a similarly leveled monster. It's the exact same in 3.x, when you drop a monster down to 1hp. They still have a good chance to injure the characters, and they go down in one hit. In a previous post, I listed a statblock for an Ogre Mage minion. 1hp, 2CR, otherwise, the same as any other Ogre Mage. How is that different than 4e? Additionally, you contradict yourself. In the 3.x example, you list "while the quick way, a area effect spell, can hurt you in a later encounter that day" as a detriment, but in 4e, "you actually risk death or at least serious resource expenditure" as a benefit. If resource expenditure is a detriment, it is a detriment in both. As well, if it is a benefit, it is a benefit for both. Which is excellent advice for any game. Unfortunately, minions undermine that idea. You aren't outsmarting or outfighting them. They aren't individually a threat, because they are too fragile. They are paper targets. They are training wheels. They are toddlers with foam bats. Mechanically, they are no different than Wandering Damage. They don't even have a mechanical damage threshold to surpass, just a simple attack roll. I don't see how to derive a sense of accomplishment from rolling 12 or better on a d20. It's not like everyone has to work together to overcome them. Everyone will put one down per hit. In fact, it discourages teamwork, because concentrating more than one person on a minion is a terrible tactic. The Wizard will plink at least one per round with Magic Missile. The Eldarin Rogue will drop one, teleport and drop another. Finish off the minions, take your healing surges and get to the real fight. I can't think of much that is less tactically interesting, or has a greater sense of 'obligatory fight scene'. I have heard theories that the new edition aims to challenge the character and not the player, where previous editions were the opposite. I don't see how minions even really challenge the characters. *[size=1]Which is problematic when fluff gets entangled in the rules. I can give everyone a static +1 to saves every five levels, and the only thing it skews is a bit of math at higher levels. But if I don't want tieflings to have such goofy names, or hail from the forgotten empire... I'm kind of stuck, because new players to my table will have expectations for tieflings.[/size] [/QUOTE]
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