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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Storm-Bringer" data-source="post: 4238452" data-attributes="member: 57832">I hadn't heard that.  I agree, thank God.I will grant that it isn't necessarily simple, but I hold that is the price for flexibility.  I understand not everyone enjoys that, but then arguing that simplicity is the ultimate goal rather presumes that it is the highest 'good' (not that you are doing that here).I will cede the point that it may not have been considered by most.  However, there were enough that would have or did think about it that there should have been comprehensive rules by now.  I understand Mutants and Masterminds has minion/mook rules.  While I wouldn't expect everyone to keep current on every RPG release available (the gods know I don't), it has been available in d20 form for some time.  Until pretty recently, however, no one seems to have really had a problem with them being absent.  Other genres had them, but sword and sorcery didn't seem to need them.  I hear claims about how they are integral to genre fiction, but I seem to recall that Aragorn and company knocked a few orcs around while Merry and Pippin were being kidnapped, then stalled.  Using minion rules, they should have caught up then slaughtered the whole troop of orcs and goblins.  Even the running count between Gimli and Legolas occurred across three books.  Conan, that I can recall, was not mobbed by dozens of guards.  I certainly don't have the depth of reading some have, but I am curious as to which specific books are being used as evidence to support the inclusion of minions.It may be somewhat kludgy, but the end effect is about the same.  Take a monster, drop it to 1hp, and you have a minion.  A few fiddly bits need to be resolved, as you mentioned, but that really is the basic mechanic here.  In 4e, the damage output is flattened and lowered somewhat, but essentially, a 20th level minion is a standard 20th level monster with 1hp.I would say those are arguably not objective problems, but I can understand that some have had problems with them.  That is a play style issue that 4e could have addressed without necessarily overhauling the entire system.  I don't agree, for example, that re-distributing the choice of powers Wizards had previously to all classes is the most elegant or best choice, from a design standpoint.  But not an opinion that needs to de-rail this thread.I will grant it can reasonably called a new concept rather than my characterization of fixing the problem of 'no minions' in previous editions.  I would also argue that the solution 4e offers isn't particularly elegant, and more or less as much a kludge as the solution I have suggested for 3.x.</blockquote>

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