Minion rules and monster summoning

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

Wow great thinking , maybe you take damage when summoning. From blood loss/spiritual energy/whatever... needed to summon a creature. I could see this as a balancing mechanic, you could heal it but it would cost resources. That way summons can be powerful powers that take a heavy toll on the caster.

Looking at the Pit Fiend, 'if' summons are the reason for its reduced hp total, then it caps you rather than simply reduces allowing you to heal. Although I am not that sure the mechanic is valid.

I have been thinking that monster may cost hit points to summon and then further hit points to sustain. As if you become the link between the monster and 'elsewhere' while the fabric of reality, now damaged, eats away at you.

Maybe 1 hp per monster Level, double for Elites, five times for solos, with an extra 1, 2 or 5 per round to sustain.

 

[Stalker0]

I would be pleased to find that minions were indeed used for summoning. I am a little wary, though. Minions are (apparently) exponentially stronger with greater numbers. What if the party had two casters? Would that many minions running around be a problem?

In general, my experience with minions has not been that they are stronger in more numbers. Its that they become stronger when there are other monsters with "group" abilities.

For example, gnolls gain attack bonuses when there are others helping them. Minions add great synergy with that. But otherwise, I don't think a hoard of minions is any stronger than another encounte.r

 

[Prodigal_Sun]

Hey there!



Looking at the Pit Fiend, 'if' summons are the reason for its reduced hp total, then it caps you rather than simply reduces allowing you to heal. Although I am not that sure the mechanic is valid.

I have been thinking that monster may cost hit points to summon and then further hit points to sustain. As if you become the link between the monster and 'elsewhere' while the fabric of reality, now damaged, eats away at you.

Maybe 1 hp per monster Level, double for Elites, five times for solos, with an extra 1, 2 or 5 per round to sustain.

Sorry I may have been a bit vague but I was actually talking about PC summoners not the Pit fiend which seems fine as is, great thoughts though I'm sure there may be some way to balance this in 4th edition.

I would really hate to see summoning go in this edition.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

The impression I got from reading Rodney Thompson's blog post about the economy of actions is that we won't get to see PCs that summon or that have animal companions in the first round of books for this edition -- If he's thinking about these issues when he was writing that blog post (late march) he wasn't doing it for the initial release. He mentions working on an upcoming SW:Saga edition book that will introduce rules for followers, but I'm sure what happens there will also impact future 4e books.

I actually really like this blog post, and encourage you to read it -- it's a terrific window into the sorts of considerations that go into game design, and specifically into the design efforts that WOTC has put into 4e. I'm sure that most folks have had my experience with 3.5 summoning -- when the druid's turn comes around, everyone else goes to the bathroom or gets drinks while the druid works through the attacks made by his handful of crocodiles . . . or whatever. That's a huge fun suck for the rest of the table, but after reading Rodney's post we can talk about it as a huge inflation in the number of actions a single PC gets to take in a round -- and how that's really not fair to the rest of the players.

My guess is that this was a tough enough question that it was tabled for the first edition. Of course, I haven't seen the core books yet, so it's possible that the ranger still has an animal companion . . . and the wizard and cleric may have summoning rituals that allow them to summon creatures to join the party in battle . . . but I'll be surprised to see it.

-rg

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Radiating Gnome - you got there just before I was able to say the same thing.

For all the reasons in that blog post, I hope we don't see the return of summoning in 4e unless it's radically different to the 3e model.

 

[Heselbine]

Good call. I hope you're right. I absolutely hated monster summoning in 3e.