Minions and Save or Die mechanics

[captaincursor]

This is pure speculation but here is my prediction so that later I can tell my friends to go look it up to see how I was right.

I think that save or die mechanics will indeed still be in the game, however they will be re-tunned to be a mechanic to clear out minions. Monsters, Elite, and Solo opponents will either be unaffected by the spells, or the spells will have a thematically related, but mechanically different effect upon them. This will allow many classic D&D spells to remain in (cloud kill), remain useful, but not continue the luck of the die deaths that many players (and DMs) don't consider to be all that fun.

Mechanically this would mean that paragon and epic level characters would have ways with dealing with the hordes of minions that their opponents would have at their disposal, the armies that should now mechanically be a threat in their full numbers, but the characters will have the tools to dispose of in a way that is possible, but a challenge. We want the characters scared of facing the entire army of goblins but able to fight them in ever growing chunks (right WotC?). Cloud kill, symbol of death, even the various contagion and poison spells all seem like they would be great ways to kill or control large numbers of minions. And if my unfounded assumption that minions will take one or two shots to kill proves out there will very little mechanical difference between blowing them up with a fireball (which everyone seems to be ok with) and stopping their heart through sheer fright (which many people hate due to the luck of the die roll).

Fluff wise this allows all the creepy, evil, not quite a good guy feel of killing lots of people through poison, disease, consuming their souls, showing them the vastness of eternity etc... while still sharing a similar mechanic (clearing out lots of minions that are a threat) with many other spells that don't flag you as a creepy guy, i.e. setting everyone on fire with your mind.

If all my unfounded assumptions prove out, put me in the class of people who likes the various classifications of monsters for the new mechanics that it opens up. Anyway just a thought.

 

[Ahglock]

Well since it appears save or die effects like flesh to stone are in but take a while to kick in, I was thinking something similar. I think there are 3 levels of monsters minions, elite , and solo. Minions you can remove the time delay, elites keep the standard time delay, solo double the time delay or make them immune.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm betting minions will have crappy HP. Real crappy. No chance of survivng more than 2 level appropriate hits crappy.

 

[Ahglock]

I'm betting minions will have crappy HP. Real crappy. No chance of survivng more than 2 level appropriate hits crappy.

In Saga they have D4HP. So yeah I suspect a similar level of crappy.

 

[captaincursor]

Honestly I'm hoping that minions have one or two "hits". I don't want to have to track their individual hit points as I move them across the battle field. Really their "hit points" should just be their number. I'm hoping that minions are some retooling of the crowd mechanic. Or something along those lines.

A squad of minions should be a threat for a heroic party.
A platoon of minions should be a threat for a paragon party.
A umm... company should be a threat for an epic party.

The numbers may not be exact, but it's the progression of it all. Minions should be able to be a threat to the PCs. During the heroic tier there should be lots of being chased around by the town watch, or the enemy town watch. Paragons should be chased around by the army of the BBEG. Epic characters should slice through the unending demonic hordes of the abyss.

I'm hoping they make minions able to be plentiful on the battle mat and easy to run, and most of able to remain a threat to the PCs. Then we can have really awesome spells, rituals, and martial manuvers to tear said minions a new one. Fun for all at the table.

 

[ptolemy18]

I think that save or die mechanics will indeed still be in the game, however they will be re-tunned to be a mechanic to clear out minions. Monsters, Elite, and Solo opponents will either be unaffected by the spells, or the spells will have a thematically related, but mechanically different effect upon them. This will allow many classic D&D spells to remain in (cloud kill), remain useful, but not continue the luck of the die deaths that many players (and DMs) don't consider to be all that fun.

That would actually be awesome. Good idea, I hope your guess is correct.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

there is a little problem

they said that monster type (minion, normal, elite and solo) is also tied to level

so a 30th level minion monster in number of 4 will still be a threat to a 30th level character, and very dangerous to a 25th level character

to me it seems as they have used a lot the concept of level

for monster: if your party is of X character of Y level than you must fight Z monster of Y level to have a good fight (where Z is 4 if all normal monster, 1 if a solo monster, 2 if 2 elite monster or 8/16 if minion, or a combination like 1 elite + 1 normal + 12 minion)

for magic items: if the power the object give is possible at level Y but not easy to get than the object is level Y

 

[erf_beto]

In Saga they have D4HP. So yeah I suspect a similar level of crappy.

So...

Minion: d4 HD
Normal: d8 HD
Elite: d10 HD
Solo: d12 HD

... like this?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I also thought about that topic, but in a different direction:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=210218&page=19
(quote for your convenience)

*performs thread golden wyvernly, err necromancy*

One thing that got me thinking are the new monster "classifications/weights" (roughly Minion, Normal, Elite and "Boss") and its implications for "traditional" spells like "Save or Die". (these implications also apply for 3rd edition already, but it might give ideas why things for changed)

Save or Die effects usually only affect a single creature.
One major component of the monster classifications seems to be that the monsters all have the same level, and thus similar attack and defense values.

Which means a Goblin Minion has the same chance of ignoring a save or die effect than a boss monster (or a Boss monster is just as easy to kill with Save or Die as a Goblin Minion). This doesn't sound very good, and might make Save or Die effects actually unbalanced (if you're fighting a lot o Minions, they suck, if you fight a boss monster, they're overpowered)

Which also ties to another thing:
Spells per Day:
A caster has only so many spells per day. If he has to fight a lot of foes with spells affecting only a single one of the, he runs out of juice quickly (in top of being less effective in encounters with many opponents). If he fights a single (but more powerful foe), he is more effective.
Hence, Vancian Magic can be a problem creating a balanced adventure. (If you want an adventure fighting Goblin Hordes, it will suck to be Wizard. An adventure hunting a band of Ogres is sweet...)
Apart from that, you also have the timing problem - do the encounters take place in a single day, or over an arbitrary amount of time?

Spells typically employed by Wizard School:
Enchanctment and Necromancy spells usually target individual foes (and severely weaken them). Conjurations are probably a middle ground, but usually, a conjured creature or effect can also affect only one target. Evocations are often mass effects.

So, a Necromancer would prefer "boss fights", an Evoker "Minion Fights". This isn't entirely bad, because it's okay if a character has his strengths and weaknesses. But this might (just might) be too much in this case.
Again, it constricts the type of adventures (similar problem as with Vancian Magic above). You have to ensure you balance the encounter setup - encounters against a lot of foes mixed with "boss" encounters, regardless how appropriate it is for the theme of the adventure.

So, for D&D 4, they decided to create more flexbility by removing a lot of constraints. (This obviously has some dangers, ranging from alienating fans of the old constraints to changing so much that new limitations or other fauls don't become apparent until it's too late)

 

[Enkhidu]

So...

Minion: d4 HD
Normal: d8 HD
Elite: d10 HD
Solo: d12 HD

... like this?

I saw this and couldn't stop myself from thinking "Han gets his own hit die? Sweet!"