Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[Irda Ranger]

I clearly disagree with you about the amount of work it will take to erase minions from modules.

You don't have to erase them; just give them Striker/4 HP, or whatever algoritmn you settle on. Isn't that the fix for you? If so, why are Minions in a module (or a Summoning Spell) a problem?

Why wouldn't it work better?

You still have the more basic problem of explaining what the heck a Minion IS within the context of the game. Why does he have Xth level BAB, AC and Dmg but only 1st level HP? How does a creature arrive at such an unbalanced state? It's a highly unstable configuration, not unlike being attacked by a highly poisonous soap bubble.

Similar to the question of a tree falling in the woods, what is a Minion when there aren't any PC's around? Does he exist, or is he merely the quantum possibilty of an particular kind of encounter that only materializes when a PC walks into the room? I don't like the second possibility.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

What'sthe capital of Belgium? Try to answer without saying "Brussels", "the place where sprouts come from" or "more than one brussel".

Minions are not an in-game concept. Hit points are not an in-game concept either, so it's not surprising that there's no in-game concept for people with one of them.

That post is pure gold.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

You still have the more basic problem of explaining what the heck a Minion IS within the context of the game. Why does he have Xth level BAB, AC and Dmg but only 1st level HP? How does a creature arrive at such an unbalanced state? It's a highly unstable configuration, not unlike being attacked by a highly poisonous soap bubble.

I guarantee that any heavy weight boxer can be killed by one blow of a sword. Organisms are, in many, many ways, soap bubbles.

Similar to the question of a tree falling in the woods, what is a Minion when there aren't any PC's around? Does he exist, or is he merely the quantum possibilty of an particular kind of encounter that only materializes when a PC walks into the room? I don't like the second possibility.

Minions, like every element of the game, exist for the sole purpose of interacting with the PCs. If something doesn't interact with the PCs, it doesn't exist, statistics or no statistics. GMs do not (or rather, should not) simply sit around running sub-games where NPCs fight NPCs without any interaction with PCs. At some point, everything a NPC does must have something to do with the experience of the PCs or the experience of the players or else there is no point to that NPC action.

Any being in the game is only a minion for the purposes of a combat that the PCs are involved in. Whether or not a NPC is a minion depends on the role that the DM intends for that NPC.

If you don't like it, don't use minions. You seem to prefer a game where certain facets of the rules system matters more than whatever that rules system might be for, and that's OK.

 

[Boarstorm]

Similar to the question of a tree falling in the woods, what is a Minion when there aren't any PC's around? Does he exist, or is he merely the quantum possibilty of an particular kind of encounter that only materializes when a PC walks into the room? I don't like the second possibility.

Um. NOTHING exists when the PCs aren't around.

 

[Lacyon]

You still have the more basic problem of explaining what the heck a Minion IS within the context of the game. Why does he have Xth level BAB, AC and Dmg but only 1st level HP? How does a creature arrive at such an unbalanced state?

How does a creature reach a balanced state? How do Elites and Solos get into their unbalanced state? Why is it natural to assume that creatures get better at everything simultaneously and proportionally?

The unreality of the system is the class- and level-based assumptions that creatures normally end up balanced, not the alternative.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

You still have the more basic problem of explaining what the heck a Minion IS within the context of the game. Why does he have Xth level BAB, AC and Dmg but only 1st level HP? How does a creature arrive at such an unbalanced state? It's a highly unstable configuration, not unlike being attacked by a highly poisonous soap bubble.

In-game a Minion is a ordinary monster who slipped in the mud, tripped over a log, was blinded by smoke, was slow to react, blinded by the sun, etc. In such by doing so he was killed off in one blow that normally he could have easily had stopped or deflected or rolled out of the way.

Similar to the question of a tree falling in the woods, what is a Minion when there aren't any PC's around? Does he exist, or is he merely the quantum possibilty of an particular kind of encounter that only materializes when a PC walks into the room? I don't like the second possibility.

A Minion when the PCs are not around is simply a ordinary being like anyone else. He doesn't gain any Minion status till the point in-game where his situation entails that he dies in a single hit.

To make an example, two identical monsters jump off a cliff towards a river. One monster lands in the river and the impact shatters a leg, the other monster now designated a minion miscalculates his jump and lands on a pile of rocks becoming nothing more then a smear.

 

[Scribble]

Similar to the question of a tree falling in the woods, what is a Minion when there aren't any PC's around? Does he exist, or is he merely the quantum possibilty of an particular kind of encounter that only materializes when a PC walks into the room? I don't like the second possibility.

Sure he exists... as an unused stat block on page x of the monster manual. other then that...

 

[Irda Ranger]

Irda Ranger, basically, you're claiming that your concerns about minions are solely related to the game rules discrepancy between how the game treats minions.

Yes. They're aberrant.

you wrote a very impressive treatise with scientific sounding terms like "game theory" "Four-factor system" and "two-factor sytem" (and even some impenetrable jargon like 4FS and 2FS) to prove your point.

I hope the use of the word "impressive" wasn't sarcasm. I only used (or invented) "jargon" because I lacked commonly used terms that captured the ideas I was trying to convey. Normally I'm a fan of Churchill's Dictum, broadly speaking.

However, the simple fact is that your fundamental point is incorrect. A minion is NOT, as you claim, a "2FS creature in a 4FS game." It's just an easily killable 4FS creature. That's it. Full stop.

Wrong. Full stop. Minions (effectively) have null HP and take null damage. They only register a hit or a miss. The threshold factors are retained but the ablative factors are entirely lost on it. Ergo, there are only two factors.


Which brings us too:

They're at the opposite end of the scale from the solo monster.

Solo Monsters obey all the rules of a 4FS. Minions do not. That is a difference in kind, not degree. The scale for 4FS opponents is Normal --> Elite --> Solo. Minions aren't on it.

However what they actually represent in game are obstacle opponents ...
they exist to provide tactical options and more variety in combat scenarios ...
Simply put, minions allow one to create more tactically interesting encounters ...
minions are all about narrative flexibility ...
minions (like Elites and Solos) exist to provide tactical options to the DM ...
From a narrative standpoint, minions fill a crucial role

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I think I've made clear that I don't find these to be satisfying answers. For my mind, there needs to be more than that. The parts should compliment the whole, and the whole should achieve the desired ends without ugly kludges. We get by with "good enough" design all the time, but why not try to puzzle it out and perhaps find a more elegant solution? Hence, the thread.


Luckily JohnSnow I've always found you to be a close reader and fair poster, and you don't disappoint once more.

Now, if you're going to argue from a "gameworld verisimilitude standpoint" that minions are "unfair," you actually have a point.

...and we arrive at our destination. This was my point. Or, a part of it, at any rate.

Yes, that's often described as being more "fun" because isn't "fun" the point of playing a game?

Of course, but why settle for only fun? Aesthetics matter too.

FWIW, I have also found this discussion to be fun. I hope a few others have as well. And if by means of this thread a more elegant solution is found for "the Stormtrooper problem", and the fun of the system is either maintained (or even improved!), wouldn't that be nice?

 

[Scribble]

Minionness is sort of like a modified barbarian rage power...

They ignore potentially life threatening damage (or gain an instant heal effect) because they believe their cause is so correct that the gods, the universe, fate, or uncle steve, would not allow them to die... One solid hit, hwoever, creates an internal minion mental paradox which makes them realize they aren't immune to damage. They die.

 

[Wormwood]

Minions, like every element of the game, exist for the sole purpose of interacting with the PCs.

I never really enjoyed DMing until I realized this simple truth.