Minions

[stormer]

I am not a big fan of minions. Here is why.

It appears that all creatures in 4th edition have a huge amount of hit points. These large hit points seem to be a result of the new rules which gives everything a massive amount of hit points at first level.

Hence 1st level goblins have 24 hit points or more!!!

The only way to get creatures with fewer hit points is to have minions. But minions have only one hit point and exist only for characters to kill them.

Minions remind characters that the world sits and waits for them. I feel that minions are the ultimate meta gaming monster problem.

If i was a bad guy i would not go out and hire minions to defend me when i can hire 24 hitpoint first level goblins!!! Here is a suggested test for all potential bad guys, hit your hire to be with a low level attack. If he does not get up right away, dont hire that guy (and he is a gonner so you can take his stuff and get richer, an added side bonus).

I propose drastically lowering the starting hit points for all characters and monsters and gettting rid of the minions for good. This will remove the meta gaming minion. Lowering the hit points will also allow characters to destroy hoards of low level monsters just as they did in previous editions hence the minions role will now be filled by first level goblins and kobolds just as it should be.

What do you all thinK?

 

[stormer]

Althought i titled this thread minions, it is actually supposed to be about lowering starting hit points to all characters and monsters. One problem this solves is to get rid of the requirements for minions. The cause for minions appears to be the excessively high hit points given to first level creatures. Sorry for the confusion and i hope this clears it up.

 

[dmcallis]

Sounds like Pathfinder may be for you. These are basic design elements of 4e you are talking about. In other words, changing those elements will make it necessary to change a LOT. Maybe staying away from 4e is the best idea...

(I'm a BIG 4e supporter, FWIW)

 

[stormer]

Hmm... you seem to be saying that high hit points for all creatures is part of what 4th edition is all about? Why do you say so?

I am not sure i agree. The game seems to work just fine with considerably less hit points per creature. The combats go faster and are more deadly. Plus the meta gaming problem is taken care of.

 

[Sphyre]

Minions remind characters that the world sits and waits for them. I feel that minions are the ultimate meta gaming monster problem.

If i was a bad guy i would not go out and hire minions to defend me when i can hire 24 hitpoint first level goblins!!! Here is a suggested test for all potential bad guys, hit your hire to be with a low level attack. If he does not get up right away, dont hire that guy (and he is a gonner so you can take his stuff and get richer, an added side bonus).

What do you all thinK?

I think you're too focused on the metagame concept of minions to understand what function they fulfill in 4e. You don't go out and "hire minions or first level goblins to defend you" you "hire creatures to defend you"

Creatures with the minion rules don't go around the game world with the word "minion" tatooed to their head. In fact, one of the things that makes them so dangerous is that they have the defenses and damage of creatures of their level. Mechanically, it'll still take 4 hits to kill the same threat, except you get the thematic effect of having multiple enemies swarming after the players.

The biggest pit fall of 4e (imo) is trying to realistically simulate reality when it's meant to easily produce the gaming sessions the DM desires.

 

[Greja]

You just need a proper DM who can tell a story so that the game terms and mechanics are not so transparent. Is your DM capable of of having a fight where you face off against bandits from Minions to normal to elite, without any of these terms being used by the DM or any of the players? A good DM could describe minions as being bandits who happen to position themselves poorly or act recklessly (pushed off bridges). Or, maybe the bandit's artillery reinforcements hide and don't come out once they are hit from their vantage point (cowardly sniping). If a player can look at an NPC in a way that doesnt scream 'minion', and its still entirely clear that one good hit will finish it off, then the DM is doing their job.


If you dont have the storytelling abilities to overcome all the gaming lingo, then you'll have just as many oddities as the party from OoTS. It's just like when a player says "I'm going to bluff the guard, I got a 23!" instead of "Wait, that wanted poster is a ruse. I'm actually an agent of the king developing an alibi to join the local assassins guild!".


Removing minions takes this story telling element out of the DMs hands. It also causes multiple enemy combats to be too powerful or result in lengthy book keeping. Sometimes it really benefits the DM to have glass cannons. If you just want weaker enemies, well thats another story. Weaker enemies are going to rob some of the player's value from a lot of high damaging or disabling effects.

 

[fissionessence]

If i were a bad guy i would not go out and hire minions to defend me when i can hire 24 hitpoint first level goblins!!!

Yeah, except that a monster of level X costs four times as much to hire as a minion of level X. Plus, the four minions you could hire can, all together, probably take about as many hits as the one monster you could otherwise hire. Definitely favor the non-minions, though, if you know that a Wizard is going to be attacking you.

Creatures with the minion rules don't go around the game world with the word "minion" tatooed to their head.

This is true, but minions don't get to wear name tags

~

 

[Appleseeth]

You know what a weird thing is about minions I found out recently: if the PCs don't know about minions, they just treat them like regular monsters, i.e. with respect. I don't describe them in any special way. Sometimes I "roll" damage for them. I'm thinking of occasionally having the minions take a second hit (very occasionally).

In other words, don't let the knowledge of minions ruin your day. They still look to the PCs as just as tough as every other monster of their level.

 

[keithu10]

I like the idea of minions for low-level monsters such as kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, skeletons, and so on. I'm not sure that I'll use them for higher-level monsters, though.

 

[SlyFlourish]

The purpose of minions

Minions are an element of an action movie more than any semblance of real life. Ever since Eberron, Wizards has started to see D&D as more of an action story rather than a system for representing life. Action points, Powers, Minions, Elites, and Solos all feed into this.

To me, minions are that element of an action movie when bad guys just start pouring out of the woodwork. If you've ever seen a John Woo movie, you've seen minions.

In Lord of the Rings, when Legolas goes into uber-archer mode and kills about twelve orcs in one round - those were minions.

As a DM, I love minions. I don't have to track them. I can throw dozens of them into a fight without much prep and without much worry. My players metagame them a little bit but when I explain it correctly they dig it.

"The orc chief howls and dozens of the gray-skinned brutes rush out of the woods and attack!"

Minions, Elites, and Solos are the best thing Wizards done for a DM as long as I've been playing. I love them.