Level Up (A5E) Minor Advantage and Minor Disadvantage

[Krachek]

-2-2+3+5-2

 

[TwoSix]

-2-2+3+5-2

2?

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not seeing that crit chance when I look at the math. I would anticipate the crit chance of M-Adv to be 6.25% (5% on the first die + 25% chance x 5% chance on the second die.) The crit chance for M-Disadv should drop by a factor of 4, to 1.25%.

So with Minor Disadvantage, in order to get a crit...the following must happen.

1) You roll a 20 on the first die. This triggers a reroll due to Minor Disadvantage.
2) You roll a 20 on the second die. Minor Disadvantage uses the lower of the two die, so this is the only combo that actually results in a 20 being used.

So .05 * .05 = .0025 = .25% chance. The same reduction that regular Disadvantage offers to crits. So your right halving the chance was poor wording.

With Minor Advantage you have two ways:

1) Roll a 20 on the first die.
2) Roll a 1-5 on the first die, and get a 20 on the reroll.

So thats 5% + 25% * 5% = 6.25%....so yes I agree with your math on this one.

 

[Stalker0]

I can only speak for myself, but missing and then realising I can reroll feels like I'll be excited, while a +2 bonus feels boring. But that's very much just IMHO.

Honestly the biggest issue I'm worried about is whether the player even remembers to reroll at all. With Advantage and Disadvantage, what I normally see from my players as they roll 2 d20s at once. So there is no remembering, they just look at the two numbers, pick which one is bigger (or smaller), and go from there.

The problem with rerolls based on die triggers, its easy for some players to forget to apply the trigger. This is especially true with minor disadvantage, its easy to "forget" you have to reroll on certain values (its not even malicious, human memory when it has an incentive to forget something, will often forget something).

 

[Morrus]

Honestly the biggest issue I'm worried about is whether the player even remembers to reroll at all. With Advantage and Disadvantage, what I normally see from my players as they roll 2 d20s at once. So there is no remembering, they just look at the two numbers, pick which one is bigger (or smaller), and go from there.

The problem with rerolls based on die triggers, its easy for some players to forget to apply the trigger. This is especially true with minor disadvantage, its easy to "forget" you have to reroll on certain values (its not even malicious, human memory when it has an incentive to forget something, will often forget something).

I've seen rerolls in a LOT of games over the yers. They tend to be exciting moments; rerolls have a certain drama attached. I've never noticed a phenomenon of people forgetting about them. Anecdotal, of course; that's why we playtest this stuff!

 

[TwoSix]

So with Minor Disadvantage, in order to get a crit...the following must happen.

1) You roll a 20 on the first die. This triggers a reroll due to Minor Disadvantage.
2) You roll a 20 on the second die. Minor Disadvantage uses the lower of the two die, so this is the only combo that actually results in a 20 being used.

Ah, you're correct. I thought the minor disadvantage was reroll and keep 2nd, not reroll and keep lower.

 

[rules.mechanic]

I tested this out with my kids today (just the minor advantage/disadvantage, not the new fighter build). Interestingly my 8-year-old and my 10-year-old found minor advantage easy and really liked it: "get a re-roll if you have a bad miss" was popular. Oddly, minor disadvantage was harder to grasp/remember - perhaps because they are used to thinking of a 16+ roll as always good news? It was also VERY unpopular for that reason: "you have to re-roll if you get a good hit". (Both minor advantage and minor disadvantage went over the head of my 5-year-old, even though he is fine rolling full advantage/disadvantage, but he's not really the target audience for Advanced 5e...)

We found something that they all found easier though. With minor advantage we re-rolled a miss if it was an odd number and with minor disadvantage we re-rolled a hit if it was an even number. They all got that no bother - even the 5-year-old! And approximates pretty well to half-advantage/disadvantage. Would be amazingly easy with a d20 that had odd numbers in green and even numbers in red...

PS For those that like to roll both dice at once for advantage/disadvantage, it's easier to apply the odds/evens rule to the "second" roll (the advantage/disadvantage dice). For this, you only consider the "minor advantage dice" if it is an even number and only consider the "minor disadvantage dice" if it is an odd number. You need a different coloured dice from the "main" roll (we used a red dice for disadvantage/minor disadvantage rolls and a green one for advantage/minor disadvantage rolls). The older kids managed that fine (not quite as popular as the re-rolling but much more popular than disadvantage16!). The 5-year old struggled though - the stepwise approach of re-rolling was much easier for him.

 

[rules.mechanic]

The munchkins had another go at it this week. Eldest was a bit more accepting of minor disadvantage but preferred the alternatives. The younger ones were having none of it. Tried out half damage on a "rescued miss" for minor advantage and dealing half-damage on a "failed hit" with minor disadvantage - they were all fine with that. Also tried out using a d2 to decide if minor advantage/disadvantage applies - they were fine with that and a d4 would allow quarter/half/three-quarter advantage/disadvantage - but it slows things down. Finally, they were also ok with +2 minor advantage/ -2 minor disadvantage (but of course this is not mathematically equivalent).

I asked the eldest (10) for her ranking:

1. Advantage5
2. Re-roll a miss on an odd number and a hit on an even number
3. d2 to decide if you get an advantage (or disadvantage) roll (I was less keen)
4. Applying the odds/evens rule to the "second roll" instead, so the "minor advantage/disadvantage dice" is always rolled but only applies if even/odd
5. Half damage on a minor advantage "rescued miss" or a minor disadvantage "failed hit"
6. +/-2
7. Disadvantage16

Make of that what you will. I liked that 2-4 & 6 were mathematically half-(dis)advantage (although the extra roll of 2 was a pain and I use half-damage in a different homebrew for my grown-ups table so wasn't keen on 5). I actually found Advantage5/Disadvantage16 the easiest myself now that I am used to it. It's just that Disadvantage16 was so deeply unpopular (I'm talking tears unpopular, so gave up!)

 

[Horwath]

why not just use re-roll on an odd d20 number?

then take lower of two dice for disadvantage and higher on advantage?

that is advantage/disadvantage in 50% of the time, or something of a +2 bonus.

 

[Waller]

why not just use re-roll on an odd d20 number?

then take lower of two dice for disadvantage and higher on advantage?

Why?

Also that's their minor advantage but twice as often for some reason.