mirror image

[apsuman]

The spell description says "to a maximum of 8 images". So you won't have more than 8, even if you empower the spell ten times. Of course, when you empower it, you have (1d4+1/3level)*1,5 images, but that won't go beyond 8. Empower only includes numeric effects (or you could argue that you'd have 15d6 with an empowered fireball).

I don't charts with rerolling, and I don't have odd dice (got to watch out when I'm going on the Spiel next time, though ;-))

Wrong. The text of the empower feat is pretty clear.

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate.


Since all cure spells have maximums, this feat seems very clear that you gain 50% more HP from an empower Cure X wounds spell.

I think, it is pretty clear that empowering Mirror image would make for more images, passing the maximum of 8.

g!

 

[KarinsDad]

Wrong. The text of the empower feat is pretty clear.

Agreed.

 

[apsuman]

I had a thought here...

Given that you have a one-in-x chance of actually being hit in melee if you have X-1 mirror images, wouldn't it be a good idea for those high level sorcerers with empower and spell slots to spare to just cast a few empowered, or double or triple empowered mirror images.

I mean, having only a 1-in-24 chance of being the one hit is almost like having a 82 AC, better really that fighter can hit the AC 82 1/20th of the time.

Like sunscreen, you would have to reapply as your protection was worn down.

g!

 

[KarinsDad]

Given that you have a one-in-x chance of actually being hit in melee if you have X-1 mirror images, wouldn't it be a good idea for those high level sorcerers with empower and spell slots to spare to just cast a few empowered, or double or triple empowered mirror images.

I mean, having only a 1-in-24 chance of being the one hit is almost like having a 82 AC, better really that fighter can hit the AC 82 1/20th of the time.

One Dispel Magic, though, targeted directed at any one image might dispel the entire spell.

And, at the level that Sorcerers are casting Empower Empower Mirror Image, their opponents have Blindsight or True Seeing or something else.

So, yes, it can be good. But, there will always be a counter to it.

Plus:

Empower MI = minimum sorcerer level of 8 = 3 to 8 images
E E MI = minimum sorcerer level of 12 = 5 to 12 images
E E E MI = minimum sorcerer level of 16 = 6 to 14 images*
E E E MI = sorcerer level of 20 = 7 to 14 images*

* the 8 maximum still applies to the non-Empowered portion of the spell.

And in each mininimum sorcerer level case here, you are using up one of your highest level spells for a single combat.

Plus, you couldn't quite have 23 images. The best would be 1 in 15 and even there, a Fighter with +20 to hit you if you had an AC of 26 would hit (15/20)/15 = 5 percent of the time. Or, it would be like boosting your AC to about 40 (a 14 AC improvement).

Not quite in the ballpark of AC 82.

And finally, an opponent could just shut his eyes and attack and instead of having a 1 in 15 times his normal chance to hit, he would have a 1 in 2 times his normal chance to hit.

Course, nobody ever mentions shutting their eyes.

 

[dcollins]

Since all cure spells have maximums, this feat seems very clear that you gain 50% more HP from an empower Cure X wounds spell.

No, I disagree.

Cure spells do not have any maximum listed... only a bound on the bonus from caster level.
I, too, read "empower spell" as not surpassing the limit of 8 mirror images.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, I disagree.

Cure spells do not have any maximum listed... only a bound on the bonus from caster level.
I, too, read "empower spell" as not surpassing the limit of 8 mirror images.

Well, the first question, based on the level of the spell, is:

Is a 2nd level Mirror Image at maximum 8 images balanced whereas a 4th level Empowered Mirror Image at maximum 10 images unbalanced? I cannot believe this to be true when comparing a second level spell slot verus a fourth level spell slot.

Ditto for a 6th level Empowered Empowered Mirror Image at a maximum of 12 images or E E E MI at a maxium of 14 images.

Is it really unbalanced to nearly double the maximum result of an 8th level spell compared to a 2nd level spell?


Also, the very definition of meta-magic spells is to push spells beyond their normal boundaries. Silent spells do not require verbal components, even though the normal spell does. Empowered spell can increase the variable result of a spell beyond that of the normal spell.

Quite frankly, I think people are reading too much into the word "maximum" and not enough into "all variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one half".

An Empowered Mirror Image is not the same spell as a Mirror Image. The feat increases the potential of the spell, just like it does with other spells with variable numeric effects.


Finally, if you roll a 1 on the D4, you still get 1 image plus level / 3. The spell did nothing extra. When you consider this, a 12th level spell caster casting Mirror Image compared with Empowered Mirror Image with your interpretation would get based on the D4:

1: 5: 5
2: 6: 7
3: 7: 8
4: 8: 8

So, on a roll of 1 or 4, he gets the same result. On a roll of 2 or 3, he gets one extra image. Does that seem fair to you that half of the rolls result in no extra bonus at all by boosting the spell by two levels? With my interpretation, he gets:

1: 5: 5
2: 6: 7
3: 7: 8
4: 8: 10

where the better he rolls, the better he does compared to the normal Mirror Image spell. And, he averages one extra image, not one half of an extra image.

Is an average of one extra image for two spell levels REALLY unbalanced? You have to ask yourself this question when confronted with a confliction between words like "maximum" and "all".

 

[kreynolds]

I, too, read "empower spell" as not surpassing the limit of 8 mirror images.

I couldn't agree more. The limit of 8 images in the spell description is obviously there as a safeguard to prevent the rediculous and infinite complications of having 24 images within 5 feet of each other or the caster, each of them occupying their own 5-foot squares.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[KarinsDad]

I couldn't agree more. The limit of 8 images in the spell description is obviously there as a safeguard to prevent the rediculous and infinite complications of having 24 images within 5 feet of each other or the caster, each of them occupying their own 5-foot squares.

Except that you cannot get 24 images, even with Empower. The base MI still has a maximum of 8, hence, each Empower can only add 1 more image if you roll a 2 or 3, and 2 more images if and only if you roll a 4.

MI = 8
E MI = 10
E E MI = 12
E E E MI = 14

This hardy seems ridiculous. In fact, I do not really understand why they put the limit in anyway. An 18th level caster would only get 10 images if there were no limit. Is 10 that much more powerful than 8, especially at 18th level?

I just think someone spilled orange juice into their corn flakes the morning they wrote that.

 

[kreynolds]

I just think someone spilled orange juice into their corn flakes the morning they wrote that.

LOL Nah. I was just exagerating. The point isn't how many images over 8 you can get, just that getting over 8 images in the first place tends to complicate the spell.

Look at it like this. Of all the core races, all of them are Medium-size. This means, that at maximum, Mirror Image will perfectly surround you with 8 images. Any more than that, and you get an overflow effect, where one or two extra images are kinda hanging out on the sidelines.

Conversely, for a Large (long) caster, being able to get 10 images wouldn't be a big deal, as that would also perfectly surround him. Ditto for a Huge (tall) caster, where 12 images would perfectly surround him.

 

[KarinsDad]

Look at it like this. Of all the core races, all of them are Medium-size. This means, that at maximum, Mirror Image will perfectly surround you with 8 images. Any more than that, and you get an overflow effect, where one or two extra images are kinda hanging out on the sidelines.

Oh, so it is a square vs. hex vs. no grid argument?

I consider the images to be constantly shifting and moving, hence with 8 of them, some of them are sometimes 15 feet to the left (in a line of them), sometimes they are behind you, etc.

Rarely would they form a 3x3 pattern around the caster, otherwise, you attack the one in the middle.

So, even with 14 of them, the most my interpretation of a 3 times over metamagicked spell taking up an 8th level spell slot can manage, it just means that there are more of them to spread out. Oh well. I can easily imagine that. And, I can easily imagine an 8th level spell doing that.