Samloyal23
Adventurer
Good stuff. We need more people in game design thinking along these lines...
D&D 4E Missing Domains?
Good stuff. We need more people in game design thinking along these lines...
Celebrim
Legend
You've been around a while; if I was impressed, I'd have given you all the credit. I'm not, but it's not your fault. That's a pretty good list for what it is, but it's not really what I am thinking of. What I'm thinking of is hard to do because the mechanical out of combat systems for things like growing crops, running a business, giving birth, generating community events, running a government and so forth barely exist in D&D. So its hard to touch them except indirectly, and if you really want to create the sort of things I'm thinking about to a large extent you'd have to create those systems first.
Also the spells you link to our of the scale and time frame typical for spells. They don't have durations in years; they don't effect thousands of targets; they have comparitively large and gross effects that would be easily observed. I'm thinking further out of the box than that.
Yeah, I've looked at it. It should probably be a orison (0th level). And its a good example of a spell which could be made to have more mechanical impact in my game, because there is a mechanical system that it can interact with more easily that doesn't exist in the RAW. (Namely, being/staying conscious when below 0 hit points.)
I know that there has been some things that touch on it from time to time, but I did say, "...when designers have taken their hands to it, they've typically done a bad job of it."
I've barely touched these design challenges myself, but in 1e in one particularly long running campaign we did eventually find ourselves with the need for more mundane systems. For example, I came up with a system for determining the chances of a successful pregnancy, the adult stats/alignment/personality of any children which you would have, as well as how to generate the stats of a child of any age based on their adult stats. I can easily imagine that there would be divine blessings of various sorts which would subtly alter the outcomes of that system in beneficial ways (or at least ways that the parents would consider to be beneficial). However, without such a system, any low level spells you'd create would tend to have large and gross effects, particularly because D&D has typically suggested that any spell which isn't immediately useful in a dungeon is by default fairly low level.
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RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
Oh, gotcha.
Honestly, I think it's on purpose that they ignore some of the mundane things, because if you take a hard look at, lets say growing crops, you'll realize that 2 applications of the Plant Growth spell would ruin the need for a community based around agriculture work. Plant the seeds, one casting of the Overgrowth version causes the crops to grow from springtime little seedlings peeking out of the soil to fall harvest instantaneously. The second casting of the Enrichment version boosts production and health of the plants. A single Eternal wand of this spell would accomplish this.
Business and government would be ruined/made efficient with divination spells to detect truth, quality or value. spells like Magecraft and Appraise Touch grant skill to those with minimal training.
By assuming that everyday things are managed somehow without a developed mechanic, I don't get around to thinking that the Commoner class should be eradicated if magic is accessible to anyone who would just do the legwork to learn it, or if even 1 out of every 1000 people would learn it and then, instead of traveling into underground caverns to kill monsters, try to aid the communities they come from. By intentionally not addressing this, the makers of D&D allow us to willingly suspend our disbelief to maintain the medieval era culture that we adventure within.
Celebrim
Legend
I think you are reversing cause and effect. Typically, D&D has placed a low price on things with high mundane value because it ignores mundane things and instead focuses only on how useful it is in helping you explore, kill things, and take their stuff. Economic and socialogical effects are ignored when appraising the power or utility of something. (See 'Lyre of Building', for example.)
Now granted, with Plant Growth - it's not clear that Overgrowth is actually rather productive in an area with food crops because the weeds might well choke out the slower growing plants. But no attention is paid to those issues by anything in the text, leaving it open to interpretation. Imagine leaving open to interpretation how much damage fireball did to a character. And the Enrichment version of the spell has an economic gain of like 18,000 days wages every time you cast the spell.
This concept falls apart when you put the PC's in charge of running the mundane affairs of their own domain. PC's tend to approach all problems with a 'let's win' mentality and will use all the resources available to them. As such, the minute you put the PC's in charge of mundane affairs is the minute before society transforms to leverage magic to solve problems. This totally blows my suspension of disbelief out of the water.
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Greenfield
Adventurer
I've seen some DMs treat Plant Growth like a shot of fertilizer. Others treat it like a dose of Speed.
That is, it might enrich the soil and thus promote healthier plants, or it might cause the plants to grow madly, depleting the soil of minerals and nutrients.
The Overgrowth version could be considered a good way to "let fields lay fallow", an old style approach to land management before commercial fertilizers were known. You'd let a field grow weeds, grass, whatever, for one year in four, then plow that growth back into the soil to act as organic fertilizer. This approach gives the soil time to convert raw mineral content into organic mineral content, something that helps make it easier for plants to take root and prosper in the following years.
Also, the Overgrowth approach could be very productive, depending on what crops you're trying to produce.
For example, it's a terrible thing to do to a wheat or barley field. It's a wonderful thing to do to grapes, berries or clover. (i.e. vine or ground cover crops.)
But also consider the spell's use away from formally planted fields. If a few acres of woodlands were to receive the "blessing", the available food for wildlife would increase. That means more game to hunt, more timber to harvest, etc.
And, consequently, more animals than the local food supply can support the following year, when the spell wears off. (The reason why people in many areas are discouraged from leaving corn feed out for deer in the winter.)
In an older version of the Tome of Magic there was a Druid spell, 2nd level if I recall correctly, that grew seeds to full grown trees instantly. One tree per two caster levels, no two seeds more than 60 feet apart.
We used knowledge of that obscure spell in a game to thwart the plans of some greedy merchants to take over an island controlled by the Elves. The Compact with the kingdom required the Elves to provide enough timber to build one ship each year, and enough of their people to man it for that year. That was their annual tribute/tax base, and over all it wasn't an unfair deal. The Elves were living up to the deal too, though no Elves ever served more than their compulsory year in the navy or merchant marine, while the merchant lords saw an entire island full of trees that could be clear cut, an island they couldn't touch unless the Elves broke the Compact.
We were sent in to "investigate" (read "instigate") problems there, and find an excuse to declare them in violation. (If we didn't take the job, the merchant lord would have sent someone else who wasn't as ethical, and the Elves would have been screwed.) Our solution was to show their Druid the spell, thus giving them a way to preserve their forest, and still increase their timber production enough to negotiate away the compulsory service part of the Compact. (Elves really don't like taking orders from people. The whole Chaotic Good thing.)
Of course spells like these don't make matter magically appear. Plants convert soil, water, air and sunlight into wood. The Elves were, in essence, selling water and dirt from their island to the kingdom in exchange for the right to be left alone. But since dirt was, and is "dirt cheap" they considered it a bargain.
So, while magic can address and even solve some problems, pretending to be wiser than Mother Nature is a risky business, and can have disastrous consequences, long term.
That is, it might enrich the soil and thus promote healthier plants, or it might cause the plants to grow madly, depleting the soil of minerals and nutrients.
The Overgrowth version could be considered a good way to "let fields lay fallow", an old style approach to land management before commercial fertilizers were known. You'd let a field grow weeds, grass, whatever, for one year in four, then plow that growth back into the soil to act as organic fertilizer. This approach gives the soil time to convert raw mineral content into organic mineral content, something that helps make it easier for plants to take root and prosper in the following years.
Also, the Overgrowth approach could be very productive, depending on what crops you're trying to produce.
For example, it's a terrible thing to do to a wheat or barley field. It's a wonderful thing to do to grapes, berries or clover. (i.e. vine or ground cover crops.)
But also consider the spell's use away from formally planted fields. If a few acres of woodlands were to receive the "blessing", the available food for wildlife would increase. That means more game to hunt, more timber to harvest, etc.
And, consequently, more animals than the local food supply can support the following year, when the spell wears off. (The reason why people in many areas are discouraged from leaving corn feed out for deer in the winter.)
In an older version of the Tome of Magic there was a Druid spell, 2nd level if I recall correctly, that grew seeds to full grown trees instantly. One tree per two caster levels, no two seeds more than 60 feet apart.
We used knowledge of that obscure spell in a game to thwart the plans of some greedy merchants to take over an island controlled by the Elves. The Compact with the kingdom required the Elves to provide enough timber to build one ship each year, and enough of their people to man it for that year. That was their annual tribute/tax base, and over all it wasn't an unfair deal. The Elves were living up to the deal too, though no Elves ever served more than their compulsory year in the navy or merchant marine, while the merchant lords saw an entire island full of trees that could be clear cut, an island they couldn't touch unless the Elves broke the Compact.
We were sent in to "investigate" (read "instigate") problems there, and find an excuse to declare them in violation. (If we didn't take the job, the merchant lord would have sent someone else who wasn't as ethical, and the Elves would have been screwed.) Our solution was to show their Druid the spell, thus giving them a way to preserve their forest, and still increase their timber production enough to negotiate away the compulsory service part of the Compact. (Elves really don't like taking orders from people. The whole Chaotic Good thing.)
Of course spells like these don't make matter magically appear. Plants convert soil, water, air and sunlight into wood. The Elves were, in essence, selling water and dirt from their island to the kingdom in exchange for the right to be left alone. But since dirt was, and is "dirt cheap" they considered it a bargain.
So, while magic can address and even solve some problems, pretending to be wiser than Mother Nature is a risky business, and can have disastrous consequences, long term.
Samloyal23
Adventurer
So, there are more spells out there that fit my idea than I realised, but almost none of them are core material in the PH and they're quite scattered about. Here's a list of domains we need to cover just to get things going the right direction:
Beauty (the idea of aesthetic value)
Motherhood (spells to make being a mother easier)
Fertility (spells to promote the richness of the land and the fecundity of plants, animals, and people)
Love (spells to bring people together, not just romantically)
Also, there are a number of existing domains that are broken. I've seen an Artifice domain that tops off with Prismatic Sphere, a spell that really has nothing to do with crafting anything. There are gaps in the logic of many domains due to a lack of appropriate spells...
Beauty (the idea of aesthetic value)
Motherhood (spells to make being a mother easier)
Fertility (spells to promote the richness of the land and the fecundity of plants, animals, and people)
Love (spells to bring people together, not just romantically)
Also, there are a number of existing domains that are broken. I've seen an Artifice domain that tops off with Prismatic Sphere, a spell that really has nothing to do with crafting anything. There are gaps in the logic of many domains due to a lack of appropriate spells...
Samloyal23
Adventurer
Just found this site: Cleric Domain List It has some interesting domains, like Family, Commerce, and Community I have not seen elsewhere, but they still have wierd gaps in them where no appropriate spells exist...
Samloyal23
Adventurer
So, in eight years, has anything improved?
dave2008
Legend
Absolutely! However, based on this thread I would say not much in the department you are looking for. At least not from WotC. I have definitely seen some things like that. A quick search came up with:
Domains (3PP)
5e Cleric Domain: Hearth
Divine Domain: Hearth
Home, Hearth, and a lot of Yarn
I've seen more (A list of spells for home's that came out around mother's day a few years ago), but I couldn't find them on a quick search. There also an official UA of the Love Domain for about 2 hours before it got taken down. It was then replaced with the Unity Domain.
EDIT: Some more
Pregnancy Rules (5e-DMsGuild)
Fertility Domain (5e-DmsGuild)
Fertility Domain (also 5e-DmsGuild)
Cleric Domain: Hearth (5e-DmsGuild)
Book of Domains (5e-DmsGuild)
Love Domain (5e-DmsGuild)
Love: A cleric Domain (5e-DMsGuild)
Clerics of Lesser Domains (5e-DMsGuild) - includes the Beauty Domain
Divine Domain: Passion Cleric (5e-DMsGuild)
Archtypes of Eberron (5e-DMsGuild) - includes the hearth domain
A Day of Mothers - spells for mothers (5e)
Druid Circle of the Land - this one is WotC
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Shroomy
Adventurer
If you're discussing 5e domains instead of Pathfinder (I'm guessing this popped up here because this used to be a 3.e forum), a thing to remember is that domains in official 5e are much broader in scope than those of earlier editions. Stuff like Birth and Fertility would be covered by the Life or Nature domain.
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