Missing Skill - Etiquette?

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

This isn't very important, but I was thinking about the skills we have been cut down to and it occurred to me that at least one was missing.

Nature - deals with the natural enviroment and creatures of the wilderness.

Dungeoneering - deals with the underground cave/tunnel/dungeon enviroment and creatures in these places.

Streetwise - deals with the urban enviroment and the lower classes.



Etiquette - deals with the higher ruling classes and the courtly/official enviroment. (Heraldry, manners, procedure, chivalry, galantry, honour, duals by combat, perhaps even law, etc)

If you were to try to identify nobles, their coats of arms, rumours about them, how much influence they have, how to survive a feast without making a numpty of yourself, manage to get an audience with the King, impress a lady of the court, tournaments, etc, you would use this skill.

The other skills don't seem to cover any of this - Diplomacy, Bluff, Insight and Intimidate don't specifically cover this enviroment.

For the clergy, such as meeting with a High Priest or Bishop, I suppose you could use Religion.

For heraldry purposes (not that it would come up often to care much) could be determined using the History skill.

What classes would this be a Class Skill for?

Paladin (Definitely)
Bard (Absolutely and the only one to make sense having both Etiquette and Streetwise as class skills.)
Warlord (Probably)

Cleric ?
Wizard ?
Invoker ?

Avenger (Not likely)
Fighter (Not likely)
Sorcerer (Not likely)
Swordmage (Not likely)

Rogue (No)
Ranger (No)
Warlock (No)

No Primal classes.

Barbarian (Absolutley no)
Druid (Absolutley no)
Shaman (Absolutely no)
Warden (Absolutely no)



Does anyone else think this is missing? (Does anyone really care?)

Are there any other skills that seem to be missing? (that could not be covered by another skill easily.)

 

[Danceofmasks]

4e did ditch a bunch of skills 'cos they wanted to make all skills more or less equally useful.

Diplomacy does include "display proper etiquette and decorum" so I'd be inclined to think a check will allow you to anticipate what the proper behaviour would likely be in a certain instance.

IMO, though .. diplomacy already does too much.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

D&D (any edition) doesn't seem to be designed for inventing new skills, or at least it isn't a common thing.

Classes, powers, weapons, armour, magic items, rituals, worlds, campaigns, adventures and creatures - yes.

Skills - no.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

4e did ditch a bunch of skills 'cos they wanted to make all skills more or less equally useful.

Diplomacy does include "display proper etiquette and decorum" so I'd be inclined to think a check will allow you to anticipate what the proper behaviour would likely be in a certain instance.

IMO, though .. diplomacy already does too much.

Yeah, that's the trouble with Diplomacy - it could cover a lot of what Streetwise does, whereas Streetwise only covers a certain enviroment.

Perhaps Diplomacy should be ditched and a Diplomacy type skill for each enviroment be created - Streetwise and Etiquette being two examples and perhaps the only ones needed, I don't know.

Diplomacy is a bit tooo general. A character good with the upper classes going into a flea pit tavern would have dire diplomacy skills there. He would be lucky if he didn't end up through a window for being a posh snob.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Hmm ... or you could assign background-based bonuses/penalties.

Such as +2 to diplomacy checks while dealing with high society (and associated issues such as imported fashion), -4 to diplomacy checks while dealing with low society.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, even if you think that Diplomacy does too much already, what ability score would you assign Etiquette to? Charisma? In that case, it's more that Charisma does too much, not just Diplomacy...although Diplomacy is sort of Charisma's catch-all skill.

Also, note that when the OP was going through possibly classes that might want/have training in the skill that they all use CHA to an extent in at least one build. Most of the guys are already going to have Diplomacy as well, so why even bother making it a different skill when it's going to be the same ability and the same classes will probably be taking it. It's just more paperwork.

 

[Ryujin]

Etiquette depends upon the circumstances. In polite society it would be handled with the Diplomacy skill. In city streets the applicable skill would be Streetwise. Yes, as you say Religion would deal with matters of clergy.

Heraldry doesn't have anything to do with etiquette. As you intimate, it's historic in nature. While knowing what the Bend Sinister means in a coat of arms might give you insight into the family behind it, it doesn't really give you the raw charisma to talk the lord of the manor into letting you stay in his keep for the night. A bonus, maybe. Actual skill and ability? No.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

Well, even if you think that Diplomacy does too much already, what ability score would you assign Etiquette to? Charisma? In that case, it's more that Charisma does too much, not just Diplomacy...although Diplomacy is sort of Charisma's catch-all skill.

Also, note that when the OP was going through possibly classes that might want/have training in the skill that they all use CHA to an extent in at least one build. Most of the guys are already going to have Diplomacy as well, so why even bother making it a different skill when it's going to be the same ability and the same classes will probably be taking it. It's just more paperwork.

I did wander about ability myself. The other option would perhaps be INT.

To be honest I wish they would dump the skill/ability thing. I think different circumstances would require different abilities.

Nature, for example, encompasses so many different potential activities that locking it into one single ability is a bit silly.

Hmm ... or you could assign background-based bonuses/penalties.

Such as +2 to diplomacy checks while dealing with high society (and associated issues such as imported fashion), -4 to diplomacy checks while dealing with low society.

Interesting train of thought.

I think the 4 skills that in of themselves could be considered Backgrounds are:

Nature.
Dungeoneering. (they must have pulled their hair out trying to think of a good name for this one)
Streetwise.
Etiquette (of course if that one counted)

Or Plant Wilderness, Rocky Wilderness, Urban Lower class, Urban Upper class.

How about Desert Wilderness and Arctic Wilderness, and Urban Middle Class (Academics, professionals, merchants and civil servants.) In the real middle-ages this would cover anyone with the title Gentleman, Esquire, Sergeant and possibly Sir. Haggling and earning money would be a big part of the skills involved. Perhaps History could be lumped in seeing the academic link to the middle classes.

Actually, now I'm thinking about it, I think the skill system needs a shakeup, or needs finishing in its current shakeup.

 

[Snotboy]

Etiquette depends upon the circumstances. In polite society it would be handled with the Diplomacy skill. In city streets the applicable skill would be Streetwise. Yes, as you say Religion would deal with matters of clergy.

Heraldry doesn't have anything to do with etiquette. As you intimate, it's historic in nature. While knowing what the Bend Sinister means in a coat of arms might give you insight into the family behind it, it doesn't really give you the raw charisma to talk the lord of the manor into letting you stay in his keep for the night. A bonus, maybe. Actual skill and ability? No.

I'm with this here. Etiquette as a skill would be superfluous with the other skills covering those interactions in their appropriate contexts. A DM can allow background and such to offer a bonus, but in the end, a lot of it can also come down to role-playing, and as the mantra goes, "You don't need rules for role-playing."

----
From Erfworld, ph 82
"His Predictamancer told him that his precious toy kingdom would fall someday. So he ordered an heir popped. Only instead of a perfect little philosopher-prince like he wanted? ...He got a sword-swinging madwoman, who knows exactly which fork to use to pluck out an eyeball. ...but not for the salad."

"Far left."

"What?"

"The smaller fork, with the one stronger tine. That's for the salad."

"Oh, it is the eyeball one."

 

[Hjorimir]

I think I'd just use an appropriate skill to determine if a character knows the proper etiquette in a given situation. For example, Religion when speaking with a member of the clergy. On a successful roll (based on whatever DC you feel is appropriate), you could grant the character an 'Etiquette bonus' to Diplomacy (or whatever you feel fits).

This is actually a good way to form mini skill challenges too, of course, and I think it represents knowledge of etiquette well enough without the need to create a new skill. Then again, I'm more of a 'work with the system first' kind of DM when I can be.