Mixed PC / NPC battle

[Alvandaar]

Dear all,

we've started our first try at 4th edition and since I'm quite new mastering the system, I've need for some advice regarding combat balance.

Inspired by the artwork of Demogorgons followers I have a rough sketch of a simple adventure (3rd level party) where the PCs are deliverying something to a village. When they arrive they find the villagers slaughtered and the village burned down. They can easily pinpoint this to a small group of demogorgons followers which have left a few days ago.

I plan a few (6 or so) of demorgons followers and maybe boost there numbers by adding some mininions. It should be a warband after all, so a total size of 12-15 members should be reached. The PCs should learn that they are no match for such a warband (either the hard way or via recon).
The main task of the PCs should be to recruit (via roleplaying) new allies for the final confrontation

Now for my questions

(A) Balance, would it be a fair assumption, that the PCs average XP encounter level (for lvl 3) plus the NPCs XPs they acquire should be equal to the enemies total XP value?

(B) Can the PCs (which are only on level 3) participate in the fight and maybe even take the active part? I don't want them to become bystanders.

(C) I plan to hand out each of my players one NPC to lead through the fight. What is your experience, can your players handle that?

(D) I was thinking about the following list of possible allies (Gnomes, especially gnome wolverines; Elves, hunters from another annihilated elven settlement; A not so evil hil giant basher), but I'd be happy to receive some more suggestions.

(E) Any experience in such a large scale combat situation, after all there will be 2 dozen combatants involved?

Cheers,
Al

 

[Dausuul]

My usual approach in such situations is to have the PCs square off against the enemy leaders, while their NPC allies duke it out with the enemy's grunt forces. The NPC-on-NPC part of the fight is either handwaved entirely, or abstracted to a great degree. It speeds things up, keeps the focus on the PCs, and gives the players more face time without requiring them to handle multiple combatants.

I would suggest handling it like this:

• Plan the enemy group with a handful of leaders who will go head to head with the PCs, plus a bunch of minions.
• The PCs have access to various allies which they can recruit for help.
• When the fight starts, each ally group takes an appropriate number of enemy minions off the battlefield (they are assumed to engage each other "offscreen"). If you prefer to keep them on the field, they engage each other off to the side; whenever their turn comes around, just handwave what happens and move on.
• The PCs fight whoever's left.

 

[Geffor]

Just done something similar and it turned out alright on the night Here's how I approached it.

A) I worked on balanced levels of creatures on both sides rather than worrying about an exact XP match. A party of 5 8th level characters and 6 7th level NPC's versus 5 10th level monsters and 6 8th level minions. It was intended as a hard encounter and just to add a liittle excitement the minions had 2 hits!

B) If the monster level matches the party level then there shouldn't be any problem. However, if the monsters (and hence NPCs) are much higher level than the party then you have to come up with a good reason why the party are involved in the follow up at all. Why didn't the more powerful NPCs say "Thanks for bringing this to our attention, we'll take it from here"

C) My players could, one of them even managed to drive 2 NPCs as well as himself. I did put a fair bit of preparation into the NPCs so that the player just had to roll a D20 and I had a table that said whether that roll hit each of the monsters and what damage/effects would be caused. The players got a stat block for their NPCs detailing the powers available to them.

D) I haven't read up about Demogorgon and don't know your setting so I won't comment on this. Just make sure that there is a good reason for the NPCs to be in the area and willng to help the party.

E) Have a large map and plan in advance where the monsters start and how they will act. Make sure you have every detail of the monsters (and NPCs) clearly laid out in front of you. I did it with tables I printed out before the session, more technological options are available. Finally, have a good idea of how the fight will end - will the bad guys/NPCs run away or fight to the death?

F) A few other things to ponder. Why is the party going to go after the bad guys and not just go home and tell whoever sent them of what they had found? My lot were hired to collect rather than deliver so they weren't getting paid if they didn't go back with what the bad guys had just stolen. Also, you will have to find a way to make it very clear to the party that they NEED allies. If you don't and the party are feeling gung-ho then finding out the hard way usually involves TPK unless you have planned how to save them from their own stupidity.

 

[Dausuul]

Also, you will have to find a way to make it very clear to the party that they NEED allies. If you don't and the party are feeling gung-ho then finding out the hard way usually involves TPK unless you have planned how to save them from their own stupidity.

This is a very good point. In my experience, the PCs are unlikely to withdraw from combat unless:

1. The first 1-2 rounds deliver enough "shock and awe" (a single non-critical hit knocks off 75% of a PC's hit points, a PC's attack misses on a natural 19, a monster's attack hits on a 2, et cetera) that the PCs instantly realize they're in way over their heads and bail, or
2. The situation has become exceedingly dire, often with 1 or 2 PCs already on the ground bleeding out.

Since you do intend for them to fight these enemies eventually, option #1 is out. Option #2 is likely to result in one or two PC deaths and possibly a TPK unless you plan an "out" of some kind (perhaps the cultists are behind on sacrifices and need some fresh victims to bleed on the altar, so they keep the PCs alive).

 

[Quickleaf]

(A) Balance, would it be a fair assumption, that the PCs average XP encounter level (for lvl 3) plus the NPCs XPs they acquire should be equal to the enemies total XP value?

By the numbers, yes. In play, no way. That scenario would mean your combat times would more than double, IME. In general XP as an encounter budget is useful only in the most basic sense...you can follow those guidelines to a T and still make a badly broken encounter. In play it's the encounter composition that makes a fight hard or easy.

(B) Can the PCs (which are only on level 3) participate in the fight and maybe even take the active part? I don't want them to become bystanders.

Not sure what your concern is here...why *wouldn't* the PCs take an active part in the fight?

I plan to hand out each of my players one NPC to lead through the fight. What is your experience, can your players handle that?

I only hand out started companion NPCs (using DMG2) when the story calls for it, and then only to experienced players good at multitasking. Doing otherwise is a serious invitation for dragging combats. Also, not every player likes the squad style of play.

(D) I was thinking about the following list of possible allies (Gnomes, especially gnome wolverines; Elves, hunters from another annihilated elven settlement; A not so evil hil giant basher), but I'd be happy to receive some more suggestions.

A last survivor from the village, not necessarily a skilled combatant? A turncoat Demogorgon follower who escaped alive?

Before you start dropping started allies into the game consider why you are doing that. If the NPC is a recent introduced, has no name, or isn't intended to be recurring I've found it more effective to follow Dasuul's advice. If winging it/hand waving it doesn't work for you, try this trick:

Each NPC squad provides the PCs with a bonus encounter power which can be used by any party member; this power is an abstraction of the NPCs contribution to the fight, gives the players a sense of leadership, without dragging down combat. For example, IMC the PCs were able to call on a trebuchet attack and an in-fight ritual during a siege.

If a named NPC ally is important you might build them as a familiar... I did this for a squire/man- at- arms follower of a PC. This way the player has a say over how active the NPC is played and how much risk to put them in.

(E) Any experience in such a large scale combat situation, after all there will be 2 dozen combatants involved?

Yes, our biggest fight had over 70 minis in play.

The final session of my campaign involved an all out war scenario. There were 6 PCs, aided by 2 statted NPC companions (each played by an experienced player), 10 archer minions (run by one player), and 4 cavalry minions (run by another player). That represented the PCs' special military unit responsible for penetrating into enemy territory to take down the BBEG.

The enemies included 30+ minions, a hobgoblin phalanx unit treated as a gargantuan solo until bloodied when it became 16 hobgoblin minions and an elite warlord, a cave troll and its handlers, a dracolich and the enchantress controlling it, the enchantress' displacer beast familiar, 5 eladrin swordmages sworn to the enchantress, 12 royal guards, a doppelganger assassin, the BBEG prince and his half-Orc bodyguard, plus a magic trap. Basically, I slammed together 3 challenging encounters (L+2 to L+4) in a very large connected area and let the players decide how to tackle it. It took 6 hrs but it was a ton of fun!

Good luck with your game.

 

[fba827]

(A) Balance, would it be a fair assumption, that the PCs average XP encounter level (for lvl 3) plus the NPCs XPs they acquire should be equal to the enemies total XP value?

It's not an exact science... but it's a good starting point. I'd also say that if the NPCs will have some area effect abilities to actually increase the number of enemy NPCs because the NPCs will be locking down (if not destroying minion) enemies as effectively, if not better, than the PCs can, depending on their composition. Also, as the number of allied combatants increase on the field, the chance of getting flanking/combat advantage increases greatly. So your rogues and other PCs that have powers that key off combat advantage will be slicing through everything (or at the very least, able to hit very accurately thanks to the bonus to hit when flanking).

(B) Can the PCs (which are only on level 3) participate in the fight and maybe even take the active part? I don't want them to become bystanders.

You have to be careful that your NPCs do not outshine the PCs in terms of abilities. For instance, just give the NPCs 1 at will power, 1 encounter power, and some misc power (like a racial ability or hunter's quarry or something). But no sort of interrupt power or any power that requires any real tracking -- it should be use it and then move on without a second thought type thing.

(C) I plan to hand out each of my players one NPC to lead through the fight. What is your experience, can your players handle that?

Some players can handle it fine. Others get distracted by the NPC and are overall less focused during their turn. Others still simply don't like having to do anything other than watch their own PC do everything. Others will have differing opinions. So it really all depends on the individuals involved.

Most recently, I can recall a time when the PCs knew they were going up against a higher level opponent, so they got some allied troops to help them. The players were allowed to control the various NPC forces that they mustered. Frankly, it dragged the combat rounds to a halt by the time everyone got to go since there was lots of positioning and tactical considerations to be made with each person's turn....

If you want this to be a key single time thing, sure, why not. if nothing else, it gives you a glimpse into how some things go.

However, you may instead want to consider something like "already, you get the allies, they will take on the force head on while the PCs go around the side and attack their leaders in the rear flanks." and then just have some d20 rolls (modified by the number of allied forces) against the enemy's d20 roll (modifier by their number of forces) every round. winner gets a cumulative +1 on the next round's check. ... and then have the real focus be on the PCs attacking the leaders.

(D) I was thinking about the following list of possible allies (Gnomes, especially gnome wolverines; Elves, hunters from another annihilated elven settlement; A not so evil hil giant basher), but I'd be happy to receive some more suggestions.

it will depend entirely on the region and what is going on. i don't think any of us can answer that question as well as you can.
I would, however, recommend that you don't get into stuff like hill giants. keep it limited more towards stuff that the PCs could do (so maybe use a goliath instead of a hill giant), and so on.

Are you planning on using the stats right out of the monster manual or something? Or using the NPC guidelines in the DMG, or better still, the companion guidelines in DMG2 (though if you don't have DMG2, the companion guidelines are similar enough to the DMG's NPC guidelines that there isn't a discernible difference for what you need).

(E) Any experience in such a large scale combat situation, after all there will be 2 dozen combatants involved?

see above.

 

[LostSoul]

I suggest the following framework:

1. PCs stumble upon a town destroyed by worshippers of Demogorgon. Religion checks should be required to determine the nature of the threat - this includes the abilities and general tendencies of Beast Cultists. It should be obvious that the force is pretty powerful.

2. PCs find signs that point to the cultists heading to the next town down the line. Challenge 1: how to get there before the cultists do? There should be a number of possibilities; I'd make this a player challenge. That is, players should be presented with different options (by describing the environment) and they can pick one. At that point a skill challenge might be called for.

3. PCs must recruit allies for the confrontation. I would pre-prep the different allies they can gather - their numbers and qualities. Then I would give the leaders some motivations. Then I'd run skill challenges to see what happens.

4. Actually, scrap #2. I'd set up a little valley of connected towns and pre-determine the cultist's general method - which towns they are going to attack and when, how long and where they will rest, any allies the cultists gain via sacrifice and summoning demons, etc. (This will change as the situation is altered by the actions of the PCs.) Most of #2 can still come into play, but the PCs will need to determine where the cultists are going - via tracking. (Fast elves and half-elves with Light Step can come in handy here.)

5. Have the PCs distribute allies to different towns as the cultists strike out in different places. To determine what happens when cultists and allies fight off-screen, make a level check: 1d20 + the group's level vs. 10 + the level of the opposing group. Instead of making it an opposed check, have both try to achieve a specific goal. You'll end up with 4 results:
Ally Success, Cult Failure: Allies kill most of the cultists or push them back.
Ally Failure, Cult Success: Allies are killed and the cult ransacks a town.
Ally Failure, Cult Failure: Allies fail to defeat the cultists but the cultists are pushed back.
Ally Success, Cult Success: Allies kill many of the cultists but a few slip into town and burn it down.
Or something like that.

This would be a little mini-campaign that would require some prep. I suggest going to Hexographer, making a map with a small scale per hex, putting towns down with an eye to forcing players to have to make meaningful decisions, and adding some other interesting features (like a wounded hippogriff that the PCs might be able to tame, or ruins with an altar to Demogorgon that the cultists can use to summon demons).

 

[Alvandaar]

Wow,

many thanks for the input, that's been really helpful. I think I'll have to wait a little while (level 5?) before I run this adventure. I fear that the PCs (just like fba827 pointed out) are unable to be the active, driving force in the final encounter. I think I'll place the adventure at around level 5 and combine it with the framework lostsoul pointed out, that's really a good concept imo.

One very good point is the fact that PCs will almost never withdraw. Learning the hard way is rarely possible at lower levels. I can only remember one situation where my players fled. They were faced with a goblin necromancer and a goblin cleric along with their cavalry of zombies and direwolves.
Beforehand they had been softened up by a squad of guardian demons so they were hardpressed and force to teleport away from combat.

After preparing, they were able to defeat them - it was a hard fight neverthless.

Maybe a good idea would be to have them fight a small group (a std. encounter) of the main force and then let them do the maths...

Many thanks yet again.
Al