Mixing manufactured and natural weapon attacks

[shilsen]

If a troll uses a greatsword and also attacks with its bite in the same round, the latter counts as a secondary attack, and is at a -5 to hit unless it takes the Multiattack feat (putting it at -2 instead), correct?

So what happens if the troll uses a longsword in one hand, claws with the other, and bites at the same time? Does the claw count as an off-hand attack (which would require Two-Weapon Fighting to mitigate the penalties) or is it also a natural attack? Or some other combination thereof?

 

[Nail]

Both claws and bite are natural attacks.

Surely you don't think claws are "manufactured weapons"?

 

[shilsen]

Both claws and bite are natural attacks.

Surely you don't think claws are "manufactured weapons"?

Nope, but I wanted to check, just in case. Esp. since it makes it easier for my monsters, with them needing only one feat (Multiattack) to use the above combo effectivelly instead of two. And I don't think my players think my monsters need any help at all

 

[Caliban]

If a troll uses a greatsword and also attacks with its bite in the same round, the latter counts as a secondary attack, and is at a -5 to hit unless it takes the Multiattack feat (putting it at -2 instead), correct?

So what happens if the troll uses a longsword in one hand, claws with the other, and bites at the same time? Does the claw count as an off-hand attack (which would require Two-Weapon Fighting to mitigate the penalties) or is it also a natural attack? Or some other combination thereof?

The rules for mixing natural and manufactured weapon attacks are a little wierd.

The manufactured weapon replaces all your primary attacks, and technically I think you would have to use any extra primary attacks as "off-hand" attacks with weapons.

Look at the Troll Hunter in the MM, it doesn't use anything in it's off-hand, even though it has Ranger levels with the TWF combat path. (It's secondary attack bonus is calculated incorrectly, but that's another issue.)

 

[Darklone]

The rules for mixing natural and manufactured weapon attacks are a little wierd.

The manufactured weapon replaces all your primary attacks, and technically I think you would have to use any extra primary attacks as "off-hand" attacks with weapons.

Look at the Troll Hunter in the MM, it doesn't use anything in it's off-hand, even though it has Ranger levels with the TWF combat path. (It's secondary attack bonus is calculated incorrectly, but that's another issue.)

Right. My favorite example (and how I do it) is/was the Minotaur.

 

[Nifft]

Personally, I'd use common sense, and call all other claw / talon / fingernail / hand-based attacks "off-hand attack", since at the very least they do involve hands.

I'd call tail / stinger / bite / pseudopod-from-the-head / non-hand-based attacks "secondary natural", and allow them all with a -5 secondary penalty (and no penalty to the primary weapon).

This suits my sense of what's fair to do to the PCs, since I wouldn't allow a psion with a Claw-power to use the claw without taking a two-weapon fighting penalty, but I would allow a Bite-power based attack as a -5 secondary natural weapon.

-- N

 

[Camarath]

The manufactured weapon replaces all your primary attacks, and technically I think you would have to use any extra primary attacks as "off-hand" attacks with weapons.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. I assume your are talking about primary natural attacks, but your primary natural attacks become secondary natural attacks when wielding a manufactured weapon, so I am uncertain what exactly you are referring to here.

Overall the rules seem rather clear on this point. You calculate your attacks with your manufactured weapon(s) normally (with no special penalities for using your natural attacks) and then you add all of your remaining (not use in wielding your manufactured weapon(s)) natural attacks as secondary natural attacks at your total attack bonus -5 (-2 with multiattack).