Mixing Manufactured and Natural Weapons

[jgsugden]

Here are a pair of emails from custserv on the subject of mixing natural and manufactured weapons.

From : Wizards Customer Service <custserv@wizards.com>
Sent : Wednesday, December 24, 2003 8:48 AM
To : "John Sugden" <jgsugden@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: Polymorph Effect Questions ...

I'm still a bit unclear on one point of this recently asked question. You
said that an 11th level fighter polymorphed into a troglodyte may make 3
attacks with his manufactured weapon, a bite attack and a claw attack during
a full attack, but that he must face two weapon fighting penalties.

Does the multiattack feat (gained as a bonus feat when taking troglodyte
form) still come into play considering that we are using two weapon fighting
rules? If so, how?

-It sure does, but only when using the natural weapons of the troglodyte form.
So... normal attack bonus (nab) with melee weapon, then nab -2 for claw attack
and nab -2 for bite attack. Just as listed under the troglodyte's full attack.

Are all natural weapons treated as light weapons, regardless of whether the
attack is treated as off handed (1/2), one handed (full) or two handed (1
and 1/2) for strength purposes normally? If so, do they all deal only 1/2
strength damage, regardless of what they normally deal?

-Yes, and yes. They are treated as light weapons and only get 1/2 the Strength
bonus to damage.

To make it clear, could you please give me the full attack bonuses and
weapon damage for an 11th level fighter (3 manufactured weapon attacks at
+11, +6 and +1) polymorphed into a troglodyte (which gives him multiattack)
that does *not* have the two weapon fighting feat, does have bull strength
cast on him (for a strength of 14), is wielding a nonmagical longsword and
wishes to attack with his manufactured weapon three times as well as with
his off hand claw and his bite during a full attack? For argument's sake,
could we consider the troglodyte's bite attack to deal full strength damage
instead of 1/2 strength damage on a hit normally?

+9/+4/-1 with man. weapon (+11/+6/+1 plus +2 for Strength plus -4 on primary
hand for two-weapon fighting without the feat); +11 with claw +11 with bite (+13
-2 for multiattack on both)

Good Gaming!

*******************************************
Chris
Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support
Website: <http://www.wizards.com>
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
*******************************************
*Please quote this email in your reply*

From : Wizards Customer Service <custserv@wizards.com>
Sent : Tuesday, December 23, 2003 1:21 PM
To : "John Sugden" <jgsugden@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: Polymorph Effect Questions ...

Hey, do the custserv people get together and discuss questions that arise
often? I've seen quite a few answers attributed to custserv on various
boards/forwarded emails regarding polymorph that are directly contradictory.
Especially when it comes to issues like gaining traits...

-When you change types, you gain the traits of the type in question.

do hit points change due to a change in constitution...

-Yes.

what attacks do you gain in different forms, how do you mix natural attacks and
attacks with manufactured weapons,
etc ...

-As noted you gain the creature's natural attacks at your own base attack bonus.
You cannot mix natural attacks and attacks with manufactured weapons.

I used to run a game where all the PCs were druids, but I had to end the
game because the players and I could not agree on what wildshape rules to
use ... (Rule 0 doesn't do much good when people are passionate about their
interpretations because of a supporting piece of advice from WotC).

-I understand, as the polymorph rules seem to be less than clear at this point.
However, the best thing you can do is to establish how you, as a DM, plan to
treat that ability from the beginning, so there are no misunderstandings.
Hopefully there will be appropriate errata/FAQ soon. Good Gaming!


*******************************************
Chris
Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support
Website: <http://www.wizards.com>
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
*******************************************
*Please quote this email in your reply*

So, we have now been told to mix natural and manufactured weapons and been given the process for mixing manufactured and natural weapons (the troglodyte example), but we have also been told that we may not mix manufactured and natural weapons.

And this comes from the same custserv person.

And it makes me cry.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And it makes me cry.

Go Custserv!

-Hyp.

 

[jgsugden]

Go Custserv!

-Hyp.

Bully!

I just received another note from the same custserv clarifying which answer was correct. You may mix them as indicated in the troglodyte example.

 

[reapersaurus]

I'm surprised you still bother writing to custserv.

custserv is wrong with both responses.

A creature with both manufactured and natural weapons does not take a TWF penalty.
It changes the (usually) primary natural weapons into secondary weapons, per http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a

Multiple Natural Attacks

Sometimes a creature (such as a saurial) has multiple natural attacks. The creature's primary attack (2 claw attacks, in the case of a saurial) enjoys the creature's full attack bonus and applies the creature's full Strength bonus to damage.

All the creature's other natural attacks are secondary attacks and have a -5 penalty on the attack bonus and apply only one half the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. (In the case of a saurial, these penalties apply to its tail attack.)

Should a creature with multiple natural attacks use a weapon, the weapon is always considered the creature's primary attack. All other natural attacks suffer the -5 penalty to hit and add only half the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls, regardless of whether or not the other attacks were originally designated as primary or secondary. Thus, a saurial wielding a weapon in one hand would attack with its full attack bonus to hit and its full Strength bonus on damage rolls with the weapon. It also could attack with its other claw or its tail or both its other claw and its tail -- all those attacks would be made with a -5 penalty and add only half the saurial's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

A creature with multiple natural attacks that only makes one of those attacks in a round makes that attack at its listed attack bonus. An attack originally designated as secondary still suffers a -5 penalty to hit.

Saurials and other creatures with multiple attacks can take the Multiattack feat, reducing the penalty to hit with secondary natural attacks from -5 to -2. This does not change the fact that such secondary natural attacks add only half the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

There are some exceptions to these rules: The most obvious is that player character races without natural attacks follow the rules for off-hand attacks, but also some monsters, such as dragons, follow different conventions. You can easily tell the difference by looking at a creature's description in the Monster Manual. If it lists only weapon attacks, it follows the rules for off-hand attacks when making multiple attacks without a weapon (unless the creature is also a monk). If it has any nonweapon melee attacks, it follows the off-hand rules for using multiple weapons, but it follows the multiple natural attack rules whenever it uses the listed natural attacks.

He was confused because he thought the PC didn't have natural attacks normally, but since Polymorph grants natural attacks (AFAIK), his answer is wrong.

The secondary attack is already penalized at a -5.

 

[jgsugden]

I'm surprised you still bother writing to custserv.

custserv is wrong with both responses.

If we ignore custserv, nobody will ever realize the extent of the problems regarding certain rules. Custserv is the proper channel. If we keep hacking at them until they get it right, maybe they'll report it and we'll get thje correct rules clarified somewhere.

 

[jgsugden]

A creature with both manufactured and natural weapons does not take a TWF penalty.
It changes the (usually) primary natural weapons into secondary weapons, per http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030528a
He was confused because he thought the PC didn't have natural attacks normally, but since Polymorph grants natural attacks (AFAIK), his answer is wrong.

The secondary attack is already penalized at a -5.

You know, technically these rules are 3.0 rules based upon the date of the Dragon magazine (and the date the article was posted on the WotC site). That means the custserv rules could be correct for 3.5.

 

[Camarath]

You know, technically these rules are 3.0 rules based upon the date of the Dragon magazine (and the date the article was posted on the WotC site). That means the custserv rules could be correct for 3.5.

From the 3.5 SRD under TYPES, SUBTYPES, & SPECIAL ABILITIES also page 311 of the 3.5 MM

Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat- in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

 

[reapersaurus]

LOL - Camarath, how many times have you quoted the Manaufactured Weapons section of the 3.5 MM since it came out?

I think I can personally remember at least 7 times...

 

[jgsugden]

From the 3.5 SRD under TYPES, SUBTYPES, & SPECIAL ABILITIES also page 311 of the 3.5 MM

I had not seen that in the books. Good on you.

That section is a bit vague.

'Some creatures combine ...' Doesn't really indicate whather any creature can, if it has both, or if only an unspecified subsection may do so. Without the specification, I guess we need to assume it applies to any creature that possibly could due to the presence of 'extra' natural weapons.

It also says that the manufactured weapon is considered as the primary attack. Does this mean that we treat it in all ways as a primary attack - for instance limiting the manufactured weapon to one attack at full BAB instead of multiple attacks (at BAB, BAB -5, BAB -10) as we limit the bite attack of a T-rex, dire wolf, etc ...?

 

[shilsen]

That section is a bit vague.

'Some creatures combine ...' Doesn't really indicate whather any creature can, if it has both, or if only an unspecified subsection may do so. Without the specification, I guess we need to assume it applies to any creature that possibly could due to the presence of 'extra' natural weapons.

That's how I see it.

It also says that the manufactured weapon is considered as the primary attack. Does this mean that we treat it in all ways as a primary attack - for instance limiting the manufactured weapon to one attack at full BAB instead of multiple attacks (at BAB, BAB -5, BAB -10) as we limit the bite attack of a T-rex, dire wolf, etc ...?

I don't think so. But I was just checking the MM and found some contradictory examples. The Troll 6th lvl Ranger on pg.247 gets multiple attacks with a battleaxe used as a primary weapon, while also attacking with claw and bite at the same time. On the other hand, the Hill Giant Dire Wereboar (pg.177) in hybrid form gets only a single attack with its greatclub (despite a +14 BAB) while making a gore attack in the same round. Go figure.