MM excerpt: phane

[Sojorn]

You know, we really need to do this throwing a monster up once a week thing and brainstorming plot hooks even after the previews end.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You know, we really need to do this throwing a monster up once a week thing and brainstorming plot hooks even after the previews end.

That sounds like an awesome idea. Hey, and it would probably be system-independent, most of the time.

 

[med stud]

I am sure other people saw the OA strategy right away. But glad I got to write it down first

Also put in, that the Phane could easily go through time and say lock the gates quickly or other such things to cause even more chaos.

Even by using only the RAW, the phane could move 26 squares per round in which it attacks; it runs on it's move action, charges someone, steals time from the victim that is enough to shift 4 squares more. Additionally, it is flying if it wants to so it can move around in a mass of people very fast.

If it wants to lock the gates and prevent escape, it can start by landing in the middle of the gate. Few people will try to run by it, so it can take it's time closing the gate. It doesn't really need that, though. Since the refugees have to stop and rest and most likely stick together, it can make a run for the refugee- camps once it is done with the town. If noone is around in the town and the main source of warmth and light is open fires, the town will probably burn to the ground as well.

Really, it doesn't take much to make a single phane into a force of nature, destroying towns and cities in it's wake.

 

[AllisterH]

Er, the 3E Phane only has a radius of effect of 30 ft and a ranged touch attack of up to a 100 ft. If it wants to destroy Waterdeep, it pretty much has to wade in and take out the city house by house.

This is pretty much true for ALL of the 3E EPIC creatures UNLESS they have access to the EPIC spells themselves.

The EPIC spells are the actual things that can wipe out a city in one action....

 

[med stud]

Er, the 3E Phane only has a radius of effect of 30 ft and a ranged touch attack of up to a 100 ft. If it wants to destroy Waterdeep, it pretty much has to wade in and take out the city house by house.

This is pretty much true for ALL of the 3E EPIC creatures UNLESS they have access to the EPIC spells themselves.

The EPIC spells are the actual things that can wipe out a city in one action....

The question is also if it is desirable to have that kind of nukes in an enemy, no matter how powerful that creature is. There is no chance for the heroes to save Waterdeep, to use that example, if the enemy can destroy it in minutes. I much rather have an opponent that ravages Waterdeep when the PCs get there. After the showdown, the survivors turn up, people move back into the city and the PCs get snazzy medallions for being the town's saviours.

PS: I know that Waterdeep is very well defended. I just used it as a theoretical example.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This is pretty much true for ALL of the 3E EPIC creatures UNLESS they have access to the EPIC spells themselves.

True enough. I think that, by itself, it's a minor flaw, but when combined with a dull ability set, it just looks worse.

THE BASIC STAT BLOCK ONLY CONTAINS COMBAT INFORMATION.

Yes, but we've received more than the stat block in this preview, and perhaps each monster entry should contain more than a statblock and a way to kill PC's, since monsters are much more than simple combat nuggets of XP.

I, at least, am not criticizing the statblock. I'm criticizing the *entire* monster entry, and only fairly mildly at that.

So, color me confused. Which is it? Is flavor text good sometimes and bad in other places? Exactly how much is good? Or, is it only that flavor text that happens to satisfy your own personal aesthetics is good and anything else is drek?

Which is it?

Well, I think the big thing you're missing is that most of the people irked about the fluff in the PH are specifically irked about campaign-specific fluff. And none of them are complaining about the phane's campaign-specific fluff (that it was created in a war of gods vs. primordials.) at the moment.

A lot of people are also irked at the meaninglessness of the names of game mechanics, like feats. Since a monster is more than a mechanical effect, since it actually exists in the world and has a name that people call it, you're going to get less complaints about that.

And there's also the point that any absolutist position is probably deeply flawed. Just as there should be no "Out of the box....full stop....nothing that can't be!" in 4e, there should be no "NEVER INCLUDE FLUFF" in 4e.

Fourthly, for my own milage, I am only mildly annoyed at meaninglessly vapid feat names, just like I'm only mildly annoyed by absolutely plot-boring monsters, but they are different criticisms. I'm not bringing the phane to task for its ability names or its own name ("phane" is fine...not great, but at least inoffensive, and the ability names are the kind of names that feats should be using -- useful, descriptive names that aren't named 'Purple Monkey Apocalypse'). I'm bringing the 4e phane to task specifically because, outside of an encounter with one, it's boring.

From my history posting here since the first hints of monsters in 4e, I've been wary that 4e monsters would rock in combat, but be kind of absolute suck outside of combat, not having a good place in the world. The Bodak, the phane....at least two monsters now revealed that have received significant "fluff demotions" into generic things that beat up PC's. In different ways that are perhaps interesting to fight, but without much of an existence outside of the fight.

Hey, maybe they're exceptions to the rule of monsters that you desperately want to use right out of the MM because your mind can't stop spinning plots around their machinations, their troubles, their powers, their potential for havoc in the campaign world....

What I've noticed with the phane was that the 3e phane wasn't too shabby in this regard (partially because of some interesting and evocative abilities), and the 4e phane kind of sucks in this regard (partially because of boring damage + status ailment abilities, partially because of "Kills because it kills" fluff). I really don't want a MM filled with 4e's versions of Phantom Fungi and Destrachans, and I'm concerned that this phane is ripe to become one of them.

"Invisible mushrooms!" "Sonic dinosaurs!" "Cat-centaurs that shoot AARP memberships!"

Combat power alone doesn't make these things interesting or worthy to use in an encounter.

Maybe that was a deliberate decision by WotC to reduce the "epicness" of the phane, but that's a decision with kind of questionable motives to begin with...

 

[Silver Jester]

Correct me if I am wrong, because I certainly might be, but couldn't a DM simply concot a "ritual" to give the Phane the ability create the Evil Twin dynamic pre-combat? I seem to remember reading about a scenario involving a succubus controlling a king - Wizards isn't granting them that ability in the stat block per-se, but the DM is free to create a situation with the succubus having the ability to dominate people out of combat. Isn't it possible that the Phane, as a being that has the ability to move through time's flow at will, could foresee the conflict with the PCs and summon the Evil Twins to its side prior to the PCs even showing up (in the encounter, it is shown with a group of minions anyway). Truly, after reading the ongoing argument, I would think this would be the easiest way to resolve the issue (I also think that the Phane could be a tremendously frightening creature in the hands of an experienced DM - any being that can move through time has the potential to be ultra-destructive - not to bring SF into it, but look at Q from TNG - not a fighter, but potentially a world ender).

 

[Sojorn]

Oh, yes, it does seem that 4th edition will give DMs the option to run the phane as a very interesting monster.

The fluff as written however (FAW?) doesn't really spark the imagination as much. Or at least mine. People in this thread seem to be pulling a lot of FAI out. The power "manipulate time" is almost so broad as to be worthless as a plot hook, as is the motivation "causing chaos".

But perhaps that's semi-intentional so monsters are more a description of a general set of creatures rather than a hard set "All phanes do X because of Y". You can either write down what manipulate time means and why its causing chaos, and make it into a BBEG, or just throw it into a devil encounter and just say it was there helping out the devils for fun (and because you thought it'd mesh well mechanically in the fight).

Hm. I still think I'd like just another sentence or so of fluff on the darn thing. Not a deal breaker by any means. Like if it was a piece of artwork that I just happened not to quite enjoy for reasons that are hard to articulate.

 

[Silver Jester]

But perhaps that's semi-intentional so monsters are more a description of a general set of creatures rather than a hard set "All phanes do X because of Y". You can either write down what manipulate time means and why its causing chaos, and make it into a BBEG, or just throw it into a devil encounter and just say it was there helping out the devils for fun (and because you thought it'd mesh well mechanically in the fight).

Hm. I still think I'd like just another sentence or so of fluff on the darn thing. Not a deal breaker by any means. Like if it was a piece of artwork that I just happened not to quite enjoy for reasons that are hard to articulate.

That's precisely what I like. In my opinion, I love the fact that it seems they are actually bringing players' and DMs' imaginations back into the game. To me, the "X because of Y" rule set that 3.X seemed to gravitate to often left the imagination deprived a little bit. I think there is a lot of room for interpretation for these creatures and, I think, that is a good thing. What is one group's Phane need not be another's, beyond the basic tool set that is offered by Wizards. Personally, if I were to ever throw one of these at my hapless group, I don't think that I would go down the route of the Evil Twin minions (I do think that is a great way for a DM to challenge their players, however), but that is only because I think the Phane becomes far more frightening when you think about it in a living, breathing environment. Taking it beyond the stat block, you would have a highly intelligent, motivated creature that is continuing an ages-old conflict - one which it can travel back to at any time and might be recieving orders from even now - that has access to anything that ever happened and - if you subscribe to this line of thought - anything that may happen in the future. I am sure there are numerous fell creatures that could benefit from such a unique set of...services the Phane could provide. Put into that context, I think the "Evil Twin" minion encounter is pretty hum-drum, when you could have a nightmarish creature of the void, a physical manifestation of pure entropy, whatever you want, erupting out of the air in front of your group. That, to me, is what makes them terrifying. That's "big league," in my mind. Not their stats - blah, to be honest - but the fact that this thing potentially knows everything about you, has seen this fight coming, and had ages upon ages to prepare for it. Who knows - perhaps the primordial creature of time shoved it on to the party for some obscure purpose. Isn't it reasonable that such a being could also send far more terrifying minions with it than Evil Twins???

 

[Fallen Seraph]

But perhaps that's semi-intentional so monsters are more a description of a general set of creatures rather than a hard set "All phanes do X because of Y". You can either write down what manipulate time means and why its causing chaos, and make it into a BBEG, or just throw it into a devil encounter and just say it was there helping out the devils for fun (and because you thought it'd mesh well mechanically in the fight).

Hm. I still think I'd like just another sentence or so of fluff on the darn thing. Not a deal breaker by any means. Like if it was a piece of artwork that I just happened not to quite enjoy for reasons that are hard to articulate.

This Phane could even be just the "base" version in the MM. With 2 or 3 other Phanes also in the MM with more advance and intricate mechanics for manipulating time, evil twins, etc, etc.